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Internet Marketing Digest 0417
Internet Marketing discussion mailing list
Digest #0417
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This list is moderated by Glenn Fleishman <[email protected]>
For info about the list, send INFO INTERNET-MARKETING to [email protected]
Send posts to [email protected]
To UNSUBSCRIBE send any text to [email protected]
To switch to single mail message mode (rather than digest) send
SET INET-MARKETING MAIL NOACK to the address [email protected]
To switch back to digest mode, send: SET INET-MARKETING MAIL DIGEST
Complete list archives: <http://www.popco.com/hyper/internet-marketing/>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In this digest:
Re: Brave New World ([email protected] (Brian Wessels))
Critique requested, please ([email protected] (Bret Schuhmacher))
Bulk e-mail discussion ("TOM VASSOS MBA BES" <[email protected]>)
Re: Bulk e-mail discussion (Keith Makuck <[email protected]>)
Re: Critique requested, please (Daryl Ochs <[email protected]>)
Re: Brave New World (marym@Finesse.COM (Mary Morris))
Re: Bulk e-mail discussion ([email protected] (Thomas Bollinger - Werbal:))
How do you visualize the Web? (Peter Small <[email protected]>)
Re: Brave New World - Slightly related to: New Thread (Joe Andrieu
<[email protected]>)
Re: Critique requested, please (lisainc@intersource.com (Barry Martin))
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 18 Aug 1995 11:29:26 -0700
From: [email protected]
Subject: Bulk e-mail discussion
Hello all. My name is Sanford Wallace, and I own and operate Promo
Enterprises bulk-email service. I have just recently joined this mailing
list, and I feel that Mr. Fleishman's service is very informative and helpful
to everyone involved. I wanted to introduce myself because I have noticed
that there were many postings in the recent archives which made direct
reference to my service. I would like to open a discussion, with any
interested parties, about the pros and cons of marketing via bulk-email. I
know there is a very negative image among the world of netizens, and I would
like to address those viewpoints.
I do want to make comment on some posts from last week. The first post was
from [email protected]. The discussion was on the "poor" response to a three
line teaser that they had run with my company. Many people had offered good
advice about improving their ad copy. Apparantly they had only received 46
inquiries for their "mini-co-op" teaser ad. One small piece of information
was left out. That ad only cost them $29. According to my calculations,
that seems to be a pretty good return for $29. What do you think? Also,
another person suggested that they must have received "atleast 46 flames". I
would challenge that statement as well. None of our advertisors have ever
received more than 1 or 2 flames to a co-op ad, as far as I know.
Another thread developed from a letter by [email protected]. He ad
only received 1 response from a 6000 direct e-mailer (I think). What he
didn't realize is that his e-mail address was misspelled T-Haynes, not
T_Haynes. That is the reason he received such a poor response.
Anyway, I just wanted to address those issues, and like I said earlier, I
invite any discussion about the advantages and disadvantages of using a
mass-email service, who believes that they are handling the service in a
responsible and correct manor.
Sanford Wallace
President
Promo Enterprises
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 18 Aug 1995 11:29:26 -0700
From: [email protected] (Brian Wessels)
Subject: Re: Brave New World
I have just joined this list today, and so I am going immediately to step
on some toes, and then leave for vacation. :-)
Please take no offense, Mary, but I feel as though your post reflects some
of the prevalent over-hype of the Internet and the Web. You have almost
perfectly described the *potential* for catalog shopping and telephones;
the cost benefits of warehouse-to-customer sales (no retail overhead, etc.)
are well realized by some companies now.
However, catalog sales have been around for about 100 years, and they have
not taken over the world. All of that potential will never be realized.
People like an excuse to get out, and they want to see, touch, heft, test
the item with their own eyes and hands (even when quality may not be in
doubt). It is easy to make an item appear good in a photograph, or even in
a 3-D virtual reality representation. But it never even approaches the
real McCoy. I want to wiggle the part that looks flimsy and might break.
The "virtual" version will not, for sure. I want to smell that bookstore;
I want an excuse to browse the mall for things *totally* unrelated when I
pick up that new pair of jeans.
Don't get me wrong, I think the Internet will be an important venue in the
future, like several that exist already. Bigger than home shopping TV,
probably about the same size as catalogs now (and cannibalizing much of
that to save printing and mailing costs). But I don't believe it will
transform us so overwhelmingly into computer-shoppers who stay home and
await the UPS truck.
Other opinions?
Brian Wessels
(I truly am going on vacation; I'll read your responses in the digest when
I get back.)
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Wessels Logicraft Information Systems
Sr. Technical Writer 22 Cotton Road
[email protected] Nashua, NH 03063
- ------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 18 Aug 1995 12:18:46 -0700
From: [email protected] (Bret Schuhmacher)
Subject: Critique requested, please
Hello all,
I've been around for awhile, but it's time to speak out and
stir up some debate...:-)
Every Tom, Dick, and Harry with a computer thinks they're all of a
sudden an HTML expert/Web Site developer. Typically these people put
a Web Site out with a URL like this:
http://www.xyz.com:8000/~myHomeDir/yourBusinessName and can't provide any
other services (esp. technical) because they don't run the server
(www.xyz.com). (apologies to anyone named Tom, Dick, or Harry :-))
WebNet (http://www.wn.com) believes a successful site is attractive,
chock full of content, a service of some sort, interactive, and loads
quickly. Have we missed the boat somewhere? Why do we seem to be
losing contracts to companies who create pages with lime-green
backgrounds and 120K images on their Home Page, no interactivity, and
an address like the one above?
My question is how does one convince a potential customer that a
professional site is *well worth* the money? Does anyone else have
this problem or is it just us?
Our server has been up for about a year and we've been giving things
back to the community in the hopes that "if you build it, they will
come." However, we're still having problems talking people into even
an introductory package for $150 (which includes original artwork, 3
months storage, and several pages of text). We charge $45/hour for
html and $90 for graphics and programming.
Sorry, I didn't intend this to be a plug. I just wanted to give you
enough info to make a judgment on where we might be failing.
If you've got a minute and would like to help, we'd be extremely
grateful if you'd stop by our site and give us a little constructive
criticism or even your first impressions.
Thanks a ton in advance,
Bret Schuhmacher
____________________________________________________________________________
Bret A. Schuhmacher eMail: [email protected]
Technical Director, WebNet Technologies URL: http://www.wn.com
Voice/FAX: 214.821.0848 Pager: 214.816.0283
____________________________________________________________________________
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 18 Aug 1995 12:36:53 -0700
From: "TOM VASSOS MBA BES" <[email protected]>
Subject: Bulk e-mail discussion
>Sanford Wallace said:
>Anyway, I just wanted to address those issues, and like I said earlier, I
>invite any discussion about the advantages and disadvantages of using a
>mass-email service, who believes that they are handling the service in a
>responsible and correct manor.
Sanford, thanks for responding to the concerns raised on the
Internet marketing list. Since you are providing some type
of mass-email service, please suggest the following to your
clients: When sending out an e-mail message, never have more
than about 60 characters on one line because some e-mail
packages may truncate the last few characters of the line, or
may turn one line into two lines making it difficult to read.
Secondly make sure that any note going out has an e-mail
address in the body of the note, or in the signature file.
Your recent posting to Internet-marketing makes both of
these errors.
My question to you: Where did you get the 6,000 e-mail
addresses that are in your database?
=======================================================================
TOM VASSOS, B.E.S., M.B.A., Part-time Instructor, University of Toronto
Internet Writer, Educator, Speaker: Call for courseware, keynotes, etc.
Manager, Internet Marketing Strategies, IBM Software Solutions Division
E-MAIL: [email protected] PHONE: 416-448-2189 FAX: 416-448-2893 ©
Of course I don't speak for IBM or the U of T, I have enough trouble
speaking for myself. This note is brought to you from Toronto, CANADA
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 18 Aug 1995 12:47:42 -0700
From: Keith Makuck <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Bulk e-mail discussion
> From: [email protected]
> interested parties, about the pros and cons of marketing via bulk-email. I
> know there is a very negative image among the world of netizens, and I would
> like to address those viewpoints.
You must understand the difference between direct marketing via e-mail
and direct marketing via US Mail in order to realize the 'negative
image.' I work for a company that does direct marketing via the US
Postal Service. Though the cost of postage is high, we will never resort
to bulk "junk" e-mail. The reason is simply that many people pay for
their online service based on number of messages, bytes downloaded,
and/or time spent online. In essence, the target of your e-mail is
paying to receive it. Mail sent thru the US Postal Service, on the other
hand, costs the receipient nothing.
- --
Keith Makuck American Research Group
Network Technician | Cary, NC (919) 380-0097
[email protected] | http://www.arg.com/arg/
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 18 Aug 1995 13:18:02 -0700
From: Daryl Ochs <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Critique requested, please
>From: [email protected] (Bret Schuhmacher)
>
>Hello all,
....Every Tom, Dick, and Harry with a computer thinks they're all of a
>sudden an HTML expert/Web Site developer. Typically these people put
>a Web Site out with a URL like this:(Snip)
> Why do we seem to be losing contracts to companies who create pages with
lime-green
>backgrounds and 120K images on their Home Page, no interactivity, and
>an address like the one above?
>
>My question is how does one convince a potential customer that a
>professional site is *well worth* the money? Does anyone else have
>this problem or is it just us?
Bret, Not sure I have any answers, just some observations.
If you're primarily talking to people aready on the net, it may be that you
are trying to buck too much head wind. The culture of the net has always
been "Free" and/or "Low Cost", PLUS, as you mentioned, it really doesn't
take much to put a page -- funcitonal or not.
My own experience suggests more hope when working with local businesses that
are interested but come to the discussion from a more traditional business
orientation. Then your very reasonable services will sound like the bargain
they really are.
While the number of local businesses wanting to get on the Web are limited
right now, that will be changing rapidly. Might be worth thinking about.
Best wishes,
Daryl
_________________________________________________________________
Daryl Ochs, General Mgr. [email protected]
Business & Marketing Solutions www.valleynet.net/~solutions/
The Chiropractic Solution www.valleynet.net/~chiro/
Fax: 916-722-3091
"Applying Strategic Thinking To Focus Marketing"
__________________________________________________________________
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 18 Aug 1995 13:19:16 -0700
From: marym@Finesse.COM (Mary Morris)
Subject: Re: Brave New World
Brian Wessels said:
> I have just joined this list today, and so I am going immediately to step
> on some toes, and then leave for vacation. :-) Please take no offense, Mary,
Neat. Somebody that doesn't know me :^)
> but I feel as though your post reflects some of the prevalent over-hype
> of the Internet and the Web.
I agree that this sounds like hype. I don't agree that it is hype. I wrote
this because I had an overwhelming view of what 15 years from now would
be like. If I didn't know better, I'd swear I sound like a babbling
idiot. But I can't ignore the rate of change in the Internet/Web
world, and how it affects us.
I have a skewed perspective. I live in Silicon Valley. I take
for granted that I can order groceries via modem right now (not over the
Internet though). I take for granted that I can pay all of my bills
by computer, and have for 4-5 years. I take for granted that if I
can't find something local (real rarity for computer realted stuff)
for the *most cost effective* price, I will order it and chose
second day delivery. There isn't much of a difference between
what I can have now and hooking that up to the web.
I see one of the biggest trends for the next 5-10 years to be
customization, whether it be Levis, a pre-selected tape of music,
or color matching for household accessories. Customization ordering is
a natural extension of the web, not of the real world where you
give the order to a human being who sometimes can't tell the
difference between "pies" and "fries".
I see another one of the biggest trends to be businesses innovating
to be cost effective. I won't deny that catalogs have been around
for a hundred years. But the cost structure of a product was different
100 years ago. I can ship a book 2nd day for virtually the same
price as regular packages that may take 2 weeks to arrive. I couldn't
do that 100 years ago, or even 20. When transporatation can be
made very efficient, you don't need to maintain warehouses local
to the retail outlets. If you have a common showroom (such as QVC
HSC, or the web) you don't need a local retail outlet. The
retail outlet will outlast the warehouses and product middlemen.
For products that you might want to experience, there will be some
places for that. Notice that I believe that products experienced
by sight will be the first to go on the web, sound would be
next and touch (for things that you want to wiggle) would be
last. I don't expect the web to completely erradicate showrooms,
just seriously dimminish them.
> I want an excuse to browse the mall for things *totally* unrelated when I
> pick up that new pair of jeans.
I would argue that is why some people surf right now.
> Bigger than home shopping TV,
We are looking at a world where cable companies and telcos are
fighting over the rights to get into the home. I would say not
only bigger than home shopping, but in many ways merging with it
and supplanting it.
> probably about the same size as catalogs now (and cannibalizing much of
> that to save printing and mailing costs). But I don't believe it will
> transform us so overwhelmingly into computer-shoppers who stay home and
> await the UPS truck.
I don't stay home to await the UPS truck (or Fed Ex either). I do
expect to have to pick up some items that are local, such as freshly
minted books with the latest information.
There is one problem with current efficient distribution. It focuses on the
business, not the home user. Fed Ex should be more of a 24 hour operation
where people register acceptible delivery times. Anyway, I do
think that some people will go out - those that love shopping just
to shop will not be dissuaded, but tell me how many people will
be mobbing the malls 2-3 days before Christmas when they can
shop from home?
I believe that the web/Internet/whatever it will be called will
tend to be more a part of the infrastructure like the phone or the
printed word is now. It will be in many homes, it will be used for a wide
variety of things including shopping and purchasing. I believe
that most of the significant purchases will still have a web
component even if they are in a local showroom because people
like to shop without a sales person breathing down their neck.
A web information system would be cost effective as the
unobtrusive clerk with a button to page a real clerk when
needed.
I didn't mean to say that all shopping will be done on the web
*as we know it today*, but the majority of the shopping will have a
web/Internet/electronic information system infrastructure
component in a few years. The majority of the pieces are there
now. The trend is to integrating diverse structures. The web
has been more effective in integrating and providing for diverse
systems to date. I think that this will continue.
In conclusion, I'll be leaving tomorrow for a few days away as
well. I'd love to hear other comments too.
Mary
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 18 Aug 1995 18:27:19 -0700
From: [email protected] (Thomas Bollinger - Werbal:)
Subject: Re: Bulk e-mail discussion
>From: Keith Makuck <[email protected]>
>
>
>> From: [email protected]
>
>> interested parties, about the pros and cons of marketing via bulk-email. I
>> know there is a very negative image among the world of netizens, and I would
>> like to address those viewpoints.
>
...
> The reason is simply that many people pay for
>their online service based on number of messages, bytes downloaded,
>and/or time spent online. In essence, the target of your e-mail is
>paying to receive it. Mail sent thru the US Postal Service, on the other
>hand, costs the receipient nothing.
>
OK, let's add some european viewpoint here (even though I just can speak for
Switzerland). Everything we receive in our mailbox causes trouble and costs.
We either have to recycle the paper (put a string around it and get the right
day in 14 days putting it on the sidewalk nicely) or throw it away (where we
pay 1) taxes and 2) a special fee per sack).
Same thing with Bulk E-Mail as described above. As an advertising agency, we
are in a kind of dilemma, but as a privat person, I can say: it sucks.
Fortunately we have the right to put a sticker on our (real) mailbox to keep at
least the unadressed mail (do you have that in America?) out.
I think it's time for some smart guy to develop something like this sticker for
e-mail-boxes as well.
Best regards, Thomas Bollinger
Werbal: Advertising Agency - Berne, Switzerland
Mail: im Berner Technopark, CH-3018 Bern
http://www.eunet.ch/werbal/ |Tel ++41 31 998 44 99
e-mail [email protected]|Fax ++41 31 998 44 98
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 18 Aug 1995 18:29:06 -0700
From: Peter Small <[email protected]>
Subject: How do you visualize the Web?
Hi Marketeers,
Perhaps someone can help me?
I'm writing a book on Lingo - the language which is used to program
Director movies for Shockwave. (Shockwave is the Macromedia equivalent of
Java which will enable multimedia and/or complex programming instructions
to be sent from a server to client computers via a Netscape browser).
Director movies have traditionally been multimedia productions with
delivery from a CD-ROM where 600 megabytes are available for lavish
productions. Even where small productions use diskettes, compression
techniques allow movies to be in the megabyte size.
Obviously, Director movies of this traditional type are not going to be at
all suitable for the Web; Director movie designers will have to come up
with a completely new philosophy - using tens of bytes instead of
megabytes. This means also that Director movies will have to be used in a
completely new role. Out goes the multimedia, in come Director movies which
are used as small intelligent agents which are used to bring the computing
capabilities of client computers into play.
To show how Lingo can enable this new role for Director movies, I need to
be able to explain around a conceptual structure for the Web.
At first, I thought the construction of a conceptual model would be easy.
After five days of rambling I began to realize that this wasn't anything
you could model simply. It then suddenly clicked: the Web has all the
characteristics of a living organic structure.
In case you think I'm out of my skull, I have a fair amount of experience
with evolutionary mechanisms and genetic algorithms and the Web is highly
characteristic of many evolving biological systems. The main
characteristics of such a system is that it adapts to its environment
continually changing and involving towards a state where the adaptation is
a perfect fit.
The snag with predicting the evolutionary progress of biological systems is
that the systems are continually interacting with and changing the
environments to which they are adapting: thus the perfect fit is never
realizable. In mathematical terms such a system is said to be of a chaotic
form which means its shape and evolutionary progress will not be
predictable. Such systems take seemingly random directions, occasionally
halting at temporary islands of stability.
Clearly, this is not going to be a suitable metaphor to use for my book,
but, what metaphor can I use?
Can anyone help me here?
I see the Web as a structure that is designing itself.
I see the game for Web weavers as being a game similar to a game of three
dimensional Sim City - where you can add elements which can affect traffic
flows.
I see the Web weaver as the guy/gal who has opened a store a block or two
away from the busy main downtown shopping area and has to figure out how to
get people to come their way.
I see the Web weaver as the competitive game player who is altruistically
offering services as a strategic tactic to secure the cooperation of others
in the face of fierce competition from other Web weavers who are using a
similar strategy.
Perhaps I just have a weird mind and there is actually some simple way to
conceptualize this Web thing?
Anyone?
regards
Peter Small
Author of CD-ROM "How God Makes God"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 18 Aug 1995 18:30:26 -0700
From: Joe Andrieu <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Brave New World - Slightly related to: New Thread
On 17 Aug 1995 13:45:01 -0700, marym@Finesse.COM (Mary Morris) wrote
> I was recently email interviewed from Ireland. One of the questions
> really caught me off guard (especially after I read my answer back).
> I was asked what percentage of sales would be done on the web in
> 15 years. I sat down and thought about this for a long while.
>
> By the year 2010, I don't see the Web/Internet playing the limited
> role that it currently does. I see myself having an entity (a
> description of my body in some CAD form) that can be used in
> whatever VRML evolves into. I call up that entity while shopping
> and try clothes on it instead of myself. For the clothing shops
[much more excellent detail deleted]
> The audience won't stay small for long. Don't expect
> immediate results. Expect immediate learning experiences, and
> develop a continous process improvement game plan to integrate
> the learning experiences. 5 years from now, the companies that
> are learning today will bear little relation to what they are today.
Excllent! Mary I think you are right on the button. VRML is the second
step to true cyberspace. (HTML was the first, IMHO.) We will do
everything you described, for all the reasons you pointed out. There is
an incredible expense to maintain storefronts and distribution networks
in realspace. Soon, those expenses will disappear from a large segment
of industry. Some segments of course, will continue to serve those
customers who revel in the physicality of trying on new clothes or
walking through the mall.
Here's a bit from a story in the Wall Street Journal the other day:
(someone forwarded this to me, I don't have the actual citation)
>Visa International Inc. and software firm Worlds Inc. are expected to
>announce today a new software system to enable Visa's 20,000 member banks to
>create a three-dimensional representation of one of their branches on the
>Internet for an undisclosed fee.
>The system, to make its debut later this fall, will allow bank customers "to
>roam the halls" of an on-line branch and conduct such transactions as
>transferring funds and applying for loans -- though you won't be able to get
>cash out of your computer.
And that's just the beginning folks. You can already buy groceries
online. I know because my buddy in Chicago buys _all_ of his groceries that
way. And of course, hot sauce is a ready commodity on the net for those who
know where to shop. <grin>
There will be some critical issues affecting the ubiquitous adoption of
this technology - the have and have-not issues won't simply disappear.
However, initial results indicate that lower-income houses which have
access to online services, tend to use the service more than upper-income
houses with access. Also, in those households that have Internet access,
people spend more time on the net than watching T.V. This all means that
the mainstream consumer is going to continue to push the Internet up to
its rightful place as a ubiquitous medium for the masses.
What I think is important for everyone to realize is that we are on the
verge of a *social* revolution unlike anything ever seen before. This
isn't simply a technical innovation or a business advantage like the FAX
machine or voice mail. The world that we are creating online will
significantly redefine nearly every aspect of human interaction.
New communities are being formed (like all of us here on
inet-marketing). New social paradigms are being realized as people
discover new ways to interact through usenet and email and the Web and
MUDs and elsewhere. I've heard several real life stories of people
who met on the Net and are now 'involved' or married. People work
together on the net. People build new organizations, like the IDA, *on
the net*. And perhaps most importantly, people are redefining political
activism on the net.
So, as an adept marketer on the crest of a tidal wave that promises to
remap the face of the industrialized world, take a look at the big
picture, be creative and find a an innovative way to help your company or
your client reach its customers more effectively, more efficiently and
more electronically. The rest will follow.
- -j
- --
Joe Andrieu NEBS Compliant, High-Availability
Director of Marketing Systems Integration and Custom Manufacturing
GNP Computers 606 E. Huntington Dr. Monrovia CA 91016
[email protected] -- http://www.gnp.com -- 818.305.8484 -- 818.305.9177FAX
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 18 Aug 1995 18:32:39 -0700
From: lisainc@intersource.com (Barry Martin)
Subject: Re: Critique requested, please
Bret Schuhmacher wrote:
>WebNet (http://www.wn.com) believes a successful site is attractive,
>chock full of content, a service of some sort, interactive, and loads
>quickly. Have we missed the boat somewhere? Why do we seem to be
>losing contracts to companies who create pages with lime-green
>backgrounds and 120K images on their Home Page, no interactivity, and
>an address like the one above?
I have been web browsing for only about 6 months. I started out with the IBM
Web Explorer that came with my OS/2 Warp. Not a bad browser. Then I
switched to Netscape 1.0 on Windows. Cool. Then I upgraded to 1.1 and WOW I
thought that was just about the coolest thing. I stayed up until 2-3 in the
morning just surfing around and waiting for all the neat stuff to load on my
28.8 dialup. I did not mind waiting for multimegabyte .wav and .mpeg and
.jpeg and .mov and .avi files to load.
But now I would never do that. The novelty is gone and it's back to
business. I still keep the graphics turned on but I have very little
patience and will bail out of a site before it gets done loading if it takes
too long. My suggestion would be to have sample pages of both sensible and
the extra large gaudy variety. You could offer both as examples of
different types of images your prospects may want to convey.
>
>My question is how does one convince a potential customer that a
>professional site is *well worth* the money? Does anyone else have
>this problem or is it just us?
Have them visit the archives of this list. Show them that the whole world
does not necessarily go for blinding eye candy that has no inherent value.
Ask them what THEIR potential customers would want to see. If it is razzle
dazzle then provide it for them.
>
>Our server has been up for about a year and we've been giving things
>back to the community in the hopes that "if you build it, they will
>come." However, we're still having problems talking people into even
>an introductory package for $150 (which includes original artwork, 3
>months storage, and several pages of text). We charge $45/hour for
>html and $90 for graphics and programming.
I am a do it yourselfer so I did my own pages. I have know idea what would
be competitive prices. Are you simple being under bid? I do know that
after doing my own pages you couldn't pay me enough to do someone elses. It
is a job that I will never finish.
_________________________________________________________
Barry J. Martin
LISA, Inc.
Software Compatible Business Forms and Checks
Accounting Software Reviews and Forum
http://www.intersource.com/~lisainc
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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