Mena: Deposition of Richard J. Brenneke
by Richard J. Brenneke
Mena: The Oral Deposition of Richard J. Brenneke
Joint Investigation by the Arkansas State Attorney General's Office and the U.S. Congress
The following deposition was taken from Mr. Brenneke at
The Office of the Attorney General
323 Center Street
Little Rock, Arkansas
on June 21, 1991 at 10:10 a.m.
(Excerpts are from pages 3, 4, 6, 7-12, 13, 14-21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 28-30, 39-41.)
MR. ALEXANDER: My name is William Alexander, Jr., and I'm
an attorney and a member of the United States Congress. I'm a
member of the Bar of the State of Arkansas as well as the District
of Columbia and other states. And I'm taking this deposition today
as a member of the United States Congress in my investigative
authority under the Constitution, and as a member of of the
Appropriations Committee having jurisdiction over all agencies of
the federal government, specifically those agencies of the
Departments of Justice, State, Commerce and the Federal Judiciary.
For some time I have been involved in investigating the subject of
inquiry today with full authority as a member of the United States
Congress. In addition, I'm acting as a Special Assistant to the
Attorney General of the State of Arkansas, who is represented here
today. And, Chad, would you state who are you, and what you're
doing here?
MR. FARRIS: My name is Chad Farris. I'm the Chief Deputy
Attorney General for the State of Arkansas. And Representative
Alexander is right, that he has been so designated, and I am
attending as a representative for the Attorney General's Office and
will participate in this investigation.
MR. ALEXANDER: I'll state further for the record, that the nature
of this inquiry is confidential. And that it is - the evidence is
intended to be used to produce for the benefit of the Special
Prosecutor in the Iran-Contra case now pending in Washington and
for other purposes. And I'd now like to ask the reporter if he would
swear the witness.
(The witness was sworn.)
EXAMINATION BY MR. ALEXANDER:
Q. Would you state your name, age and residence?
A. Okay. The name is Richard J. Brenneke, B-R-E-N-N-E-K-E. My
home address is [deleted] Street in [deleted], and that's [deleted]....
Q. So you were an independent contractor with the Central Intelligence Agency?
A. That's correct.
Q. Beginning when and through what years?
A. 1968 through about 1986, somewhere in 1985, '86 is when I called it off.
Q. So what services did you perform for the Central Intelligence Agency?
A. Specialized in two activities; I handled money for them, I handled East Bloc weapons purchases primarily made in Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia....
Q. And you were a pilot for the CIA?
A. That's correct.
Q. During what period?
A. During the whole period I worked for them.
Q. And that what years?
A. That would be '68 through '80 -- I think the last flying I did for
them was in '84.
Q. Did you ever pilot an aircraft to a location at Mena, Arkansas?
A. Yes, sir. I did on a number of occasions.
Q. And what aircraft did you fly into Mena?
A. I generally flew a C-130. Aircraft would be brought into Mena,
the first trips that I made started in early '84.
Q. I see. Were you based out of Mena for a period of time?
A. That would be a very appropriate description.
Q. How many flights would you say that you made from the Mena, Arkansas airport for the CIA during the period of time that you worked for them?
A. Ten to twelve.
Q. Ten to twelve flights? And you flew a C-130?
A. Generally flew a C-130. I did, however, on occasion come in --
on one occasion specifically I recall coming in on a Lear Jet, on one
occasion on a 400 Series Cessna.
Q. You kept flight logs of all of your flights for the CIA?
A. Yes, sir. I certainly did.
Q. You have those logs?
A. They're lodged with my attorney.
Q. And would you submit to us copies of -- exact copies of those
logs, and make those an attachment to this record?
A. I certainly will....
Q. All right. Now, Mr. Brenneke, could you tell us when you first
made a flight for the CIA from Mena, Arkansas?
A. It would have been March, April of 1984.
Q. 1984. And what was the cargo that you transported for the CIA
from Mena?
A. From Mena?
Q. Yes.
A. Okay. From Mena I would generally take people who had been
trained in the area around Mena, generally paramilitary or military
forces from Central America. They would be taken back to Panama
City, where I would drop them. And, in addition to that, we would
carry weapons that were being shipped down there. The weapons,
as I've said, frequently came either from government stores or
through [deleted] Gun Shop in Miami, Florida.
Q. Now, were the shipments made from Mena, though?
A. Yes, sir, they were.
Q. Okay. Now, the guns, how did you know they were guns?
A. I could see them being loaded on my aircraft.
Q. Were the guns in boxes?
A. The guns were in crates, and they were stamped clearly on the
outside as to what they were.
Q. Now, can you identify for the record some of the kinds of guns
that were being shipped from Mena to Central America?
A. M-1's, M-1 rifles, recoil -- small recoilless rifles, [illegible], I've
forgotten the exact caliber on it, grenades, ammunition for these
weapons, fuses, detonator fuses. And I remember that one very
specifically because it only happened once. But we had detonator
fuses on board, and my concern was that we might have the
equipment being detonated on the same flight, and I didn't want
that.
Q. Did you inspect the crates yourself prior to airlifting?
A. No, sir. I didn't look at every crate. But I would, from time-to-
time, open one because I wanted to make sure of the weights on
them.
Q. And who was with you as co-pilot on the first flight?
A. [deleted], a friend of mine who lives in Denver, Colorado.
Q. Did he accompany you on all the flights or were there other co-
pilots?
A. No, there were other co-pilots from time-to-time.
Q. Can you describe -- name for us the co-pilots that accompanied
you on the several flights that you made to Central America?
A. No, sir, I can't. It's been too long.
Q. Do you recall names other than [deleted]?
A. Yes. Unfortunately only nicknames. There was a fellow that I
flew with regularly that was called "The Hippie." He worked out
Medellin, would frequently fly the trips up north to us.
Q. "Up north," what do you mean?
A. Up to Mena.
Q. To Mena?
A. And also into Iron Mountain Ranch in Texas.
Q. Into Texas. So you -- let's deal with the Mena location at the
moment, and we can go to other locations today if we wish --
A. Sure.
Q. -- at a later time. There is an airport at Mena, and what's the
name of it?
A. It's Mena Airport.
Q. Mena Airport. And who did you see personally involved in the
loading of these crates and the management of these cargoes that
you knew personally and you can identify for the record? Did you
see anyone there you would --
A. Yes, a man by the name of [deleted].
Q. Were there -- [deleted], is he from Mena?
A. [deleted] owns and operates [deleted].
Q. In Mena, Arkansas?
A. In Mena, Arkansas. And he would be the individual directing his
workers, because they followed his direction in loading and
unloading aircraft.
Q. How many workers do you recall were used for the purpose of
loading and unloading aircraft?
A. Depending on the equipment, it could run as high as twelve,
more often than not it was around five or six people.
Q. Five or six people. Would you -- do you recall any of the names
of the people who participated?
A. I was never introduced to who they were.
Q. I see. So as I understand it, they would load the guns and
munitions on the C-130, and you and a co-pilot, one of who you've
identified as [deleted] --
A. Uh-huh.
Q. -- would fly these munitions and equipment to locations in
Central America. Where was the cargo destined for; where did you
fly it to?
A. We flew it to Panama City and off loaded it there.
Q. Do you remember where in Panama City?
A. Panama -- at Tecuman Airport.
Q. Which airport?
A. Tecuman.
Q. Tecuman?
A. Tecuman, T-E-C-U-M-A-N.
Q. Tecuman Airport. That's in Panama City?
A. In Panama City.
Q. Did you fly them to other locations?
A. Yes, sir. We also flew to a point on the East Coast of Panama
and Colon.
Q. Colon?
A. It's a Greek word.
Q. Now, could -- were the shipments met by people in Panama?
A. Yes, they were. They were. They were met by military types who
wore military uniforms and were easily identified as members of the
Panamanian Defense Force, which essentially is the Palace
Guard....
Q. I see. Now, what would happen to the cargo once you landed in
Panama at either of these locations when it was met by the
Panamanian Defense Forces?
A. The cargo would be immediately off loaded off the aircraft and
loaded either onto trucks or stacked in warehouses. If we were
going into Colon, there are bonded warehouses where it would
simply be stacked in warehouses where it would simply be stacked.
Q. Were these military trucks?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Could you identify the military insignias on the trucks?
A. No. They were just --
Q. They were military trucks?
A. Drab olive green.
Q. Olive green trucks?
A. With numbers stenciled on the side.
Q. I see. Operated by --
A. Operated by people in military garb. I assume they were military
trucks.
Q. Okay. And then what would be your actions following the
arrival there when the -- after the cargo was unloaded; did you stay
the night, or would you immediately turn around an return to the
United States? What was your --
A. No, we always stayed the night. Generally we would stay just
one night, there were times when we stayed two or three.
Q. Now, you would stay a night or a couple of days and you
returned. And would you return with cargo?
A. Yes, sir, we would. We would come back with individuals and
from time-to-time unmarked boxes of items that were put in one
aircraft along with the individuals. Now, being conservative by
nature and not having a death-wish, I opened the boxes on a
number of occasions to find out what I was flying. And what --
Q. What did you discover the cargo to be?
A. I found the cargo to be cocaine, in some cases marijuana.
Q. How, would you describe what you saw when you opened the
boxes?
A. What I saw when I opened the boxes were plastic bags filled
with a white powdery substance. On one occasion I wanted to know
more about what it was, so I cut one of them open and tasted it; and
I have tasted cocaine in a controlled environment before at the
request of law enforcement officials, so this --
Q. So you positively identified the substances that you were
carrying as cocaine?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. How much cocaine would you judge that you were carrying?
A. In the course of time there?
Q. Well, in each load?
A. In each load, 4 to 600 pounds.
Q. 4 to 600 pounds. And did you see people loading this cargo
onto the airplane?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And who -- can you identify those people?
A. Those were Panamanian Defense Force soldiers. They were in
military uniform and easily identifiable as such.
Q. The same people that took the guns off, put the cocaine on?
A. Absolutely.
Q. Is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, what would you do with the load of cocaine once it was
loaded onto your C-130; where would you go with it?
A. We would bring it to Mena, Arkansas.
Q. And how long would it take you to fly to Mena?
A. Four to six hours, depending on the wind.
Q. And you have a flight log that would identify this flight?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. Each one of the flights?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. And when you landed at Mena, what would be the disposition
of the cargo?
A. On one or two occasions the cargo was taken off by people who
were not residents of the Mena area and put into other aircraft
which departed from there. However, the most frequent activity was
that the aircraft would be unloaded in front of [deleted]'s hangers
and it would be stored in the back of the hanger....
Q. And go back in your mind to the first trip you took and describe
to me the disposition of the cargo; that is, the cocaine, once it
returned to Arkansas, once it was delivered to Arkansas? And I am
especially -- I am particularly interested in the identification of
persons other than [deleted]. You've talked about [deleted]. You've
identified him. Can you identify other people who might have
received this cocaine?
A. Yes. I can identify people who in fact received the cocaine, not
"might have." And --
Q. Can you tell us who they were?
A. I can tell you that they were members of John Gotti's family in
New York. One of them was an individual know to me by the name
of Sal Reale.
Q. Could you spell that name for us?
A. R-E-A-L-E.
Q. Sal Reale?
A. Salvatore Reale.
Q. Salvatore Reale?
A. Correct.
Q. And how did you know Mr. Reale?
A. Mr. Reale at that time was the Director of -- I believe it was that
time, was the Director of Security of Kennedy International in New
York City.
Q. In New York City. Speak to the subject of your knowledge of
Mr. Reale and his activities as the head of security at Kennedy?
Tell us what you know about him and what he did?
A. Okay. Mr. Reale was a -- was one of Mr. Gotti's lieutenants. I
watched the two of them interact. Mr. Gotti would provide
directions, Mr. Reale would carry them out. It was his job to make
sure that cargo being shipped through Kennedy was not lost, but
properly located, and in some cases avoiding customs -- avoided the
customs procedures....
Q. So you worked for Mr. Gotti as well as for the CIA?
A. Actually the CIA told me to do that on his behalf.
Q. So the CIA was in, would you say, partnership or association
with Mr. Gotti?
A. Yes, sir. I would say a partnership.
Q. And can you describe the nature of that partnership?
A. Sure. The organized crime members had a need for two things:
they needed drugs brought into the country on a reliable, safe basis;
they needed people taken out of the country or people brought into
the country without alerting customs or INS to the fact that they
were being brought into the country; they also needed their money
taken offshore so that it would not be subject to United States tax
where they might have to declare its source. And so we performed
these kinds of functions for them.
Q. Mr. Brenneke, are you saying that the CIA was in the business
of bringing drugs into the United States?
A. Yes, sir. That's exactly what I'm saying.
Q. And that they were in partnership with John Gotti in this
operation?
A. I would say that they worked with Mr. Gotti and his
organization very closely. Whether it was a formal partnership, I
don't know. But there certainly was a close alliance between the
two.
Q. All right. Now, let's go back to Mena Airport in Arkansas for a
moment. At a time when you saw Mr. Reale there, did he receive
any of the shipment, the cargo of the drugs that your brought back
from Panama?
A. He did not personally take any of the drugs. He did, however,
see that they were transferred into aircraft and vehicles so that they
would be moved off the field, and that was his function. His
function was not to load the vehicles, but to see that nothing got
lost on transit.
Q. Are you saying that drugs that you brought back from Central
America to Mena were for the purpose of delivery to Mr. Reale,
who was in the employ of Mr. Gotti, the New York crime syndicate
boss?
A. Yes, sir. I would say that.
Q. And Mr. Reale was there to manage the transhipment of those
drugs?
A. From time-to-time there were other people from the family down
there.
Q. Did you have any conversations with him about where he
intended to take those drugs?
A. Yes, sir. I asked on more than one occasion where the drugs
would be taken, and I was told the New York City area, specifically
Kennedy International Airport....
Q. Now, I was asking you about whether or not the CIA had a
"black bag" operation at [deleted] in Mena, Arkansas. And maybe a
more interesting way to ask that question would be, you knew that
you were dealing with criminals; is that correct?
A. That's correct, sir.
Q. You were dealing with criminals that were transporting and
selling cocaine in the United States?
A. Yes....
Q. Now, did the Gotti organization, through Reale, pay money to
the CIA for the drugs?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. Do you know how much money?
A. Firsthand knowledge, somewhere in the $50,000,000 bracket.
Q. How do you know how much money?
A. Because I banked that money for them in Panama City, and
ultimately transferred it to other locations in Europe....
Q. So what would be the procedure for you to receive the payment
from the Gotti organization for the drugs?
A. Generally the money was -- okay. Let me restate that. The money
was given to us in cash. Q. "Us," you mean the CIA? A. "Us,"
meaning the people I worked with, who were also associated with
the Central Intelligence Agency. We would transfer that money to
banks in Central and South America. And from there transfer via
accounts that I had established back in 1970 -- they were accounts
which I was a beneficial holder and the named signee on it....
Q. Can you recall any conversations you had with any of the CIA
agents about the money, and tell us the nature of that conversation,
the scope of it?
A. Sure. When I found that we were bringing drugs into the United
States, and that we were receiving money which was being put into
accounts which I knew to belong to the United States Government,
as I'd set them up specifically for that purpose, I called Mr. Don
Gregg, who was a CIA officer with whom I was acquainted, and
complained about the nature of what we were doing.
Q. Now, who is Mr. Don Gregg?
A. At that time, he was George Bush - Vice-President George
Bush's National Security Advisor.
Q. And do you recall the date that you had this conversation with
Mr. Gregg?
A. I am more than willing to look for it in my telephone records.
Q. And when you discover that, you can provide it for us?
A. I will provide you with --
Q. You have records of the conversation?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And will you make a copy of that record available for this --
A. Yes, sir, I will. Including my handwritten notes that are
contemporaneous.
Q. Now, you don't have any notes with you at this time?
A. No, I do not.
Q. But do you recall the conversation with Mr. Gregg?
A. Very well.
Q. And can you tell us what you remember about that conversation?
A. I surely can. I was told that it was not my business, what I was
flying in and out of the country. That I was hired to do specific
things, and if I would do those things and not pay any attention to
anything else, we would all be very happy. I didn't like that.
Q. Well, what else did he say?
A. Shut up and do your job.
Q. He said, "shut up and do your job?"
A. Essentially, yes.
Q. Did you have any further contact with him?
A. I talked to him in 19 --
Q. "Him," I'm talking about Mr. Gregg?
A. Yes. Subsequently I talked to Mr. Gregg on a number of
occasions as well as to other people in the Vice-President's office
to voice my concern over the use of drugs in -- importing drugs into
the United States and using the cash generated from that to perform
operations which I perceived to be not put before Congress in any
form....
Q. I think, finally, I want to ask you if you have any knowledge of
the money that you're talking about coming from the Gotti
organization being used for any other purposes, other than
depositing in the bank accounts for the CIA?
A. Sure. We had to run the operations at Nella, for instance. The
training facilities at Nella had to be paid for.
Q. Now, where is Nella?
A. Nella is about 10 miles out of Mena, north.
Q. North of the Mena Airport. We've not talk about that, Mr.
Brenneke. Can you tell us what your know about Nella; what it is,
and for what purposes it was established?
A. Sure. Nella was a training base for military and paramilitary
folks from south of the border, Mexico, Panama.
Q. Who managed the base? Who operated the base?
A. Don't know the names of the operators.
Q. What agency operated the base?
A. Central Intelligence Agency, as far as I knew.
Q. Did you know anyone from the agency that was responsible for
the operation?
A. I knew the names of some of the people over there. I didn't spend
much time at Mena, so I'd have to answer that by saying, no, I really
don't know. I did know one of the folks who was a flight instructor
over there, and that was Terry Reed.
Q. Terry Reed.
A. And on another occasion, I did provide Mr. Reed with a
deposition in a case in which he was acquitted.
Q. Mr. Brenneke, I have here in my hand a copy of a videotaped
deposition which was presented as evidence in the United States
District Court for the District of Kansas in the case United States
of America, Plaintiff versus Terry Kent Reed, Defendant. And I will
ask you if you can identify this document?
A. (Witness viewing document.) Yes, sir. That is the testimony that
I gave under oath in Portland, Oregon....
Q. (BY MR. ALEXANDER) Mr. Brenneke, I don't want to dwell
on this too much at this point. But I think it's important just to
summarize the connection between the Mena CIA operation and the
Nella CIA operation. And can you just tell us briefly what
distinctions there was, if any, and whether or not these operations
were one in the same? And let's move onto something else after you
have explained that.
A. The operations were one in the same. The equipment that was
used at Mena would frequently transport people and equipment to
the truck, for instance, you know, would drive up to Nella and
leave people and equipment there.
Q. So, in other words, the CIA had an operation in Mena which
included Nella?
A. Yes....
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