A CNN Debate with Senator Exon

by Senator Exon & Marc Rotenberg

A CNN Debate with Senator Exon

CNN

February 13, 1995 21:00 Eastern Time

Transcript # 1021-7

SHOW-TYPE: Analysis

SECTION: News; Domestic

LENGTH: 1774 words

HEADLINE: Panelists Debate Electronic Privacy Issues

BYLINE: FRANK SESNO

HIGHLIGHT: A Michigan student faces criminal charges for transmitting sexually explicit, violent fiction over the InterNet. Privacy advocate Marc Rotenberg and Democratic Senator James Exon of Nebraska debate the issue.

BODY:

FRANK SESNO, Anchor: The U.S. government is going after a Michigan college student on a felony charge involving sexual fantasy and violence. It all started with a trip down the information highway with a detour into a murky, unregulated area. Using 'Jake Baker' as his computer name, 20-year-old Abraham Jacob Alkhabaz posted stories in the Internet fraught with sexual violence using the real name of a woman classmate. An example of his work - 'I yanked her up by the hair and force her hands behind her back. I quickly get them restrained with duct tape. Her little body struggles against me as she screams for help.' He also described the theme of his work - 'rape is romance.'

Last week, the student was suspended from the University of Michigan. Now he faces a federal felony charge of threatening to injure.

SAUL GREEN, U.S. Attorney: There were transmissions back and forth between people who received this transmission and this story that discussed and described, perhaps, how to actually fulfill some of the things that are outlined in the story.

DAVID CAHILL, Alkhabaz's Attorney: He never bothered her. He never contacted her at all. He had a class with her last semester, remembered her name, and then when he wrote the story used her name.

FRANK SESNO: The American Civil Liberties Union believes Alkhabaz is protected under the First Amendment. Last Friday, a U.S. district judge ordered him held without bond pending his trial. He's scheduled to be back in court on Friday for an appeal hearing on the bond issue. The federal charge has a maximum prison sentence of five years.

Now joining us to discuss the Michigan case and some of the legal issues involved, Democratic Senator James Exon of Nebraska, who joins us from Capitol Hill, and Marc Rotenberg, director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center in Washington. Thanks very much to both of you. Senator, let me start with you. Was the law broken in the case out of Michigan?

Sen. JAMES EXON, (D-NE.),(LIVE): I don't know enough about that case, and I'm not a lawyer, but I'm glad to see that somebody's starting to get into this. Basically what we're trying to do with our law is to simply apply the laws that are now enforced on telephones over to and on to the new information superhighway. I think young people, especially small children, should be able to cruise that superhighway without being endangered by a whole series of smut, pornography, call it what you will. There's been many cases of this. At least I hope that this one case may set a precedent, and I hope that the action that we plan to take in the United States Senate will simply clear out some of the smut, some of the pornography, while not interfering with the legitimate rights of any citizen.

FRANK SESNO: All right. Let's come back to the Senate measure in just a minute. Marc Rotenberg, was the law broken?

MARC ROTENBERG, Electronic Privacy Information Center: I think that will have to be determined by the court, Frank. It's a difficult case. It's a test case, and what you see here is federal prosecutors trying to respond to a public concern about offensive speech.

FRANK SESNO: Senator, are you- In your news release just last week, in your bill- Your bill is described as the 'Communications Decency Act,' and it says here it would extend and strengthen protections against obscene and indecent material to cover these computers and emerging technologies. Now, how exactly would you accomplish that?

Sen. JAMES EXON: We would simply accomplish that, and what this is designed to do is to give more enforcement law to the prosecutors and also to the judges for increasing the sentences for people that are found guilty of promoting smut and pornography.

FRANK SESNO: What's wrong with that, Marc Rotenberg?

MARC ROTENBERG: Well, I'm sympathetic to the senator's concern, but I think it would be a mistake to try to regulate Internet communications as we currently regulate the telephone network. It's clear that this is a very different type of communications environment, and I think the proposal will raise a whole host of problems.

FRANK SESNO: Such as?

MARC ROTENBERG: Well, I think the breadth of the proposal in particular - in this instance it would penalize not just the person who speaks the words that might be found to be offensive, but also the companies and universities and other service providers that transmit the information. We have never, never previously penalized people operating as common carriers in that setting, and I think it would be a mistake to do so here.

Sen. JAMES EXON: Marc, I think you're overreacting. That is not the intent of our legislation at all. If you or others want to come in and help us out to better define this- We're not trying to penalize the universities. Clearly that is not the wording of the legislation, but it's part of the hoopla that goes on any time anyone tries to take any action to clean up portions of our society that myself and others believe are bringing great injury, particularly to our young people. Now, if- You just cited some very legitimate legal considerations that I would like to talk with you about and work with you on. I am very fearful, though, that what you and others that are very much concerned about the First Amendment to the Constitution are saying, 'It's wrong to have the laws that we have now in place with regard to telephone. It's wrong, for example, to have laws with regard to the U.S. mails.' I would simply say to you that- And you talk about the universities and others being part of this - that's like saying we're going to put the mailman who delivers the smut in jail. That is not our intent at all.

MARC ROTENBERG: Well, I'm very pleased to hear you say that, Senator, and we would be happy to work with you. The bill as currently drafted, I'm afraid, does create these problems. It speaks, for example, of penalizing the transmission of speech which may be found to be lewd or obscene. And that's a new- That's new ground in this area of law. I think we need to look at that. I also think we need to look at the question of whether you really want to penalize speech that's considering to be harassing. I mean, that's- You know, it's a problem, of course, harassment, but if you begin to penalize speech between people who know each other- I mean, do you want to penalize the people who call us at home? It's really going to be open season, I'm afraid, on the Internet, and it's something that really requires careful study.

FRANK SESNO: Gentlemen, is this about the First Amendment? Is this about freedom of speech and expression, or is it about a new technology and trying to get your arms around it?

MARC ROTENBERG: Well, Frank, I think it's about both. Clearly our country has very strong respect for open speech, and at times we pay a bit of a price - we hear things we don't want to hear - but I agree with the senator. Certainly we should be prepared to punish things that actually cause harm to people, and we don't disagree about that. But it is also a new technology, and new technologies pose new issues, pose new challenges, and we have to find ways to respond appropriately.

Sen. JAMES EXON: I agree with you, Marc. It poses new opportunities, new challenges and also new dangers, and that's the part that I'm trying to address. I certainly like your attitude. I think maybe we can work together on this. It seems to me, from what you're saying, that you agree there's a problem, but you don't think the action that I have taken so far is the right way to go. I say come together. Let's talk. And maybe we can work out something that is agreeable to all and stop smut and pornography from overpowering this new system-

FRANK SESNO: Senator, how much smut and pornography do you think there is on the Internet?

Sen. JAMES EXON: From what I have read from many sources, from some universities you've had to take down certain links because there is so much smut and so much pornography that it was even embarrassing to universities, which are usually pretty open on this.

FRANK SESNO: Mr. Rotenberg, how do you respond to that because, in fact, there is a lot of that stuff out there.

MARC ROTENBERG: Well, that's true, Frank. There are problems, and the university is responding. The on-line service providers are responding. I think people-

FRANK SESNO: They can't police every terminal in the lab.

MARC ROTENBERG: Well, they can police their own terminals, and I think that's an important point also. We need to develop-

FRANK SESNO: Wait - the university- If I may- In a university, for example, many of the students have computers in every room.

MARC ROTENBERG: Well, still, I think the point here is that we want the university policing its own community, and we want the on-line service providers policing its own community. The risk, and frankly it's a serious risk, is that the federal government will intervene and say, 'We want this standard applied to the universities, to the on-line service providers and to everybody else.' And I think that outcome won't leave anybody very happy.

FRANK SESNO: Senator, before we break here, what's the course for your proposed legislation?

Sen. JAMES EXON: Well, let me say this - the first thing everyone should recognize that right now there is a bulletin board that almost anyone can check into. It lists different subjects. It goes into sex. You can plug into that, and you can get all kind of lewd, obscene smut material. I think we've got to take some action now before this gets out of hand, and I want to work with Marc and others who are very much concerned about the First Amendment, as I am. But I think we can get something done if we work together instead of just throwing up our hands and saying this is so big we can't do anything about it.

FRANK SESNO: OK, Senator James Exon, Democrat of Nebraska, thanks very much. Marc Rotenberg of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, we appreciate your time, and we'll be looking forward to seeing what you two can work out together.

MARC ROTENBERG: Thank you.

Sen. JAMES EXON: Thank you Marc.

MARC ROTENBERG: Thank you, Senator Exon.