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The Mickus/Fenwick interview
1
--------------------------------------------------------
- ParaNet Pi Exclusive : The Mickus/ Fenwick Interview -
--------------------------------------------------------
THE CRUCIBLE BBS <ParaNet Pi> 416-244-9999 - 24Hrs - 12/24/96 - 44 Megs
On November 6th/88, Lawrence (Larry) Fenwick, noted Canadian UFOlogist
was interviewed for ParaNet on Sunday afternoon at the Toronto
residence of ParaNet Pi Sysop, Tom Mickus. He had previously agreed to
this interview, with the full knowledge that it was being taped, and
that the transcript would be released for distribution on the North
American ParaNet System. He spoke for approximately 4 hours, of which
approximately 170 minutes were taped. During that time Larry spoke
frankly and in some depth on a number of issues and events current to
UFOlogy. The interview was done at my request, and Larry graciously
assented to agree to the exchange, without any strings attached.
Additionally, no money was exchanged. Although an interview, much the
dialogue is in conversational style, appropriate for the informal setting
which we were in.
Regarding the content you are about to read, Larry neither makes the
claim that this is original information, or that he knows all of it.
But as you will see, he does have some pieces of the puzzle, in my
estimation. Before the interview, I gave him every right to protect his
sources, as well as have certain portions of the interview "off the
record". While he has withheld some names, none of the substance of
what we discussed was held back. Its all here for you to examine and
evaluate.
As I've mentioned, approximately 170 mins of our exchange was suppposed
to have been on tape. However, after the interview, and to my extreme
chagrin, I soon realized that the first 45 mins of the tape was almost
blank, and the A-B, C-D order of the 4 sides seems to be haphazard. I am
puzzled as to what happened, but at this point blame the recording device
for screwing up...and of course also blame myself for not ensuring the
integrity of the recording device, although the process was monitored
throughout...and I am genuinely perplexed as to how this had happened.
What I have therefore done, is to paraphrase the dialogue as much as
possible, in order to bring out the 'highlights' of what we discussed in
the first 45 mins. About one third of that had contained an in-depth bio
of interviewee Larry Fenwick. Perhaps on a subsequent occasion, Larry can
recount some of the information which we covered, a good portion which
included commentary on the two recent TV productions, namely that of
"UNSOLVED MYSTERIES - the Gulf Breeze segment", and of course
"UFO-Coverup LIVE". For the time being, to the best of my recollection,
some of what Larry brought up will be included in an appendix at the end
of the formal transcript.
One last note...this entire effort on my own part has consumed almost
exclusively 4 days of my life. The transcibing process took close to 40
Hours, using simple tape recorders. Every effort has been made to insure
the integrity of the dialogue of the part of Larry Fenwick. I can
confidently say that I have reproduced accurately 99% of what Larry
Fenwick said in the 125 mins of taped dialogue which was intact. The 40
Hours of time I think reflects this. My own dialogue, sparse as it is, is
about 90% accurate. In some areas I have clarified my questions.
Throughout, you will notice the use of square brackets [ ], these are
added in by myself in areas that required some clarification...especially
when certain mannerisms, inflection of speech, pause in speech etc.,
didn't "translate" into the written word sufficiently. Whereever you find
words capitalized, that will indicate a word strongly emphasized, and
indeed I have added this clarification in most of the instances.
Lastly, although you may find some hints as to my interests and
positions on various aspects of the UFO issue, I have not as yet come out
in favour of, or against, most of what Larry Fenwick has said. For me, in
part, the jury is still out. Having said that, I cannot help feel that
much of what Larry Fenwick has enuciated here is quite significant. There
should be enough information here for sleuthing armchair UFOlogists to
get involved in, and to track down. The information conspiracy must
end...the people must know. If what Larry and others say is true, even a
part of it...then we don't have much time. In closing, I encourage you to
spread the transcript of this file onto other Bulletin Board Systems. If
it acts as a catalyst for action...pro or con...then it will have served
its purpose.
-Tom Mickus 11/10/88
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
[The transcript begins at the near the end of side 1...]
<Fenwick> "...on the air, and they went up and interviewed Robert
Sufferin [sp?], and they got him on camera, and he was
interviewed on Channel 9 [CFTO Toronto], on the local
news. ...well there was a deluge of phone calls, and
people started descending en masse, on Robert Sufferin's
property. About 2,000 - 3,000 people descended onto his
property. They were there day and night, from all over
southern Ontario."
<Mickus> "And what year was this?"
<Fenwick> "1975. This was in October of '75. The agreement between
the aliens and the American gov't, [with] the intelligence
agencies, was made in June of that year."
<Mickus> "June of '75..."
<Fenwick> "That's right. Thats when the agreement was..., for the
exchange of technology was made. One month to the date,
after that 'event' occurred to Robert Sufferin, he got
a telephone call from Falconbridge Air Force Base from
a lieutenant, who asked if he and his wife would be
willing to undergo psychological tests. A battery of tests.
He agreed, so did his wife. They took him...I don't know
when this occurred, fairly soon after that,...nor do I
know where the tests were administered. I would assume
somewhere in southern Ontario. They gave him tests, and
so on. And a month later..."
[ tape change ]
<Fenwick> "...now the information that we found out, and that I
just described, was as a result of an interview that
Harry and Joe and I did with Robert Sufferin on his
property. We weren't allowed to make to make notes,
until we got into our car. No tape-recorders, no
photographs. He talked extensively, for several hours,
about UFOs in general, about various topics. This was
the 2nd of two interviews done with him. I wasn't
present at the first one..., there was a gentlemen by
the name of Wayne Forsyth who was doing a documentary
for public schools or high schools on UFOs, who was
with Harry and Joe the first time he was interviewed,
and his wife was also there. Now we only talked with
Robert when I was there. He said...he told us about
this incident [UFO hovering over his barn, and another
one which landed for 'repairs' in the adjacent field,
then both flew off after a short time...neighbor
phoned Sufferin to tell him that he thought his barn
was on fire, which it wasn't...the UFO hovering above
was extremely bright and luminouscent], and he told
us about the telephone call from Falconbridge Air
Force Base, and about the incident where three men
showed up in full military uniform on Dec.7th, 1975.
They came in an O.P.P. [Ontario Provincial Police]
cruiser, unmarked...an unmarked cruiser, driven by
the head of the detachment of the O.P.P. Bracebridge,
who has since denied that he was ever there, to one
of our members [CUFORN] who was his best friend. In
other words, he lied to his best friend. He said,
'that no cruiser was ever sent up there...impossible.'
The three men who visited him [Sufferin], one was the
lieutenant from Falconbridge Air Force Base, the
other two were from the United States. One from the
Air Force Office of Special Investigations, AFOSI, and
the other officer was from the Office of Naval
Intelligence. As you know, OSI and the ONI are part of
the Project Aquarius unit. They are all linked together,
as you saw in the Oct. 14 television show. They brought
with them a portfolio...a book...whether it was the
'yellow book' written by the alien or not, I don't know.
It was quite thick he said, hundreds of pages long."
<Mickus> "The yellow book goes back to..."
<Fenwick> "That was written by an alien, for the Americans."
<Mickus> "And when did they originally get that?"
<Fenwick> "They got that in 1975, in June of '75, under the agreement.
The alien actually wrote it out...and it was used.
...Now what Robert was shown was a series of photographs,
full colour, dating back to WW II...close-up photographs
in broad daylight of UFOs...which were POSED [his emphasis]
In other words, the aliens stopped the craft, and allowed
pictures to be taken. And these were all gun-camera
photographs, taken from jet aircraft...from various aircraft.
A pile of them...a pile of them. And they were all 8 1/2
by 10 glossies. He was shown these photographs. He was also
told several things. They told him that when the incident
occurred...right to the minute. He had not told his
wife or his sister that he had noticed the exact time of
this landing, or landings we should say, on his property.
They told him why the landings occurred...what happened.
There was a landing for repairs to one of the craft. The
other one hovered over the barn...the one in the field
had some problems...mechanical problems. It took off,
finally it got out of there. They told him this, and he
didn't know why [they were telling him]. And they
apologized for the landing on his property, they told
him why the UFOs are here on this planet...what they
represent, and where they are from. They also told him
that they knew of the previous two sightings he had had
with his brother-in-law on several nights prior to that
incident. They had been on his property and been looking
out the window, and a couple of over-flights had occurred
of UFOs. He hadn't told a soul about that, not even his
wife, only his brother-in-law had known. So there is no
way that they could have known, unless they were in contact
with the aliens when it happened. They said that they had
tracked these UFOs on radar..., at Air Force bases its done
all the time, except that the 'unknowns' are never
publicized. They always say when someone calls in and says,
'We have a report of a UFO...did you track anything on your
radio at Downsview Air Force Base or Falconbridge or
Toronto International Airport...or ANY airport in the
Western world?" Their orders are [to say] 'No.' Deny, deny
deny...right down the line. And we surmised this ourselves
although this was confirmed.
The interview proceeded thusly, as Roberts said. They gave
him a telephone number to call...and unlisted, unpublished
telephone number to call in case there were any further
incidents on his property. And they said that there had
been an agreement...an agreement made with the aliens
between the American government and the aliens. And they
told him a few things about a long range program...or
plan, a master plan they called it, which was underway.
Now that's all that Robert Sufferin told us in 2 hours.
We talked about things other than UFOlogy for most of the
time. As we left the property...we were about 35-40 feet
away from Bob, and he called out to us. This was in
daytime, and we were going back to our car. He called out
to us, [and] he made this statement...and we wrote it
down in the car, 'What was the cause of WW II?'
He had been told..., the classified information about the
programming of Hitler..to cause WW II. And we did an
article about the case, with the exception of that statement.
As we thought it didn't fit in.
And in 1982 we found out the information..which I have just
told you. We are way ahead of the game as far as that TV
show is concerned [UFO-Coverup LIVE]. We know a little about
what was mentioned by Condor and Falcon, plus more. At
that point in 1982 we found this information out. This was
7 years after the Sufferin incident. We didn't interview
Robert Sufferin until 1978 by the way. He had remembered
what had occurred in 1975, a few years earlier. This is in
the summer of '78. So...we had made the notes, and in 1982
we had heard this information. In 1983 I was looking
through some old files, and I came across the Sufferin
incident...and we had written up an article on it [previously]
in a small journal that Harry Tokarz had churned out on his
own. It ran about 4 issues, it was called "UFO Pulse Analyzer"
and he had mentioned this in an article. And I looked at
the notes, and see in the margin there, "What was the
cause of WW II", which I had written down in the margin.
And I wrote down below that, 'What has this got to do with
UFOs?'. At that time we didn't know. And later on we found
out."
"Bill Moore was in touch with Robert Sufferin by phone, in
our presence. He phoned him. We gave him the phone number."
<Mickus> "In 1982?"
<Fenwick> "No...actually this was in 1981. He was here in Toronto, and
he called Bob up in Utterson, Ontario, where Bob lived at
the time. Bob still owns the property, but we don't know
where he lives now, he's moved around a bit. So Bill Moore
talked to him on the phone...we didn't hear what Bob said
on the other end of the line, but Bill said that he
confirmed what I suspected. Bill had heard a little bit
in 1980. He got the documents in 1982 on Aquarius and this
sort of thing...MJ-12. But he had heard a little bit. The
agreement was mentioned. I know that Bill mentioned the
agreement on the phone..., he knew about that. How?, I
don't know. But that was the clue. Now I asked Bill..."
<Mickus> "The world war II thing?"
<Fenwick> "Yes. That programming had been done."
<Mickus> "Just to clarify...did someone ask him this question?"
<Fenwick> "No...this was separate [from the interview]. As we were
leaving, he just blurted that out. Robert Sufferin just
blurted it out."
<Mickus> "So he just said it to you [unsolicited]?"
<Fenwick> "Yes, out loud. He yelled it out after us as we were
walking back toward our car."
<Mickus> "And that was it?"
<Fenwick> "Yes, that was all. We didn't ask him. What the hells he
talking about [they said to each other]. We just walked
on to the car...made a note of it,...I wrote down right
behind the note, 'What has this got to do with UFOs?'
We couldn't see any connection at all at that time. And
it was only in 1983 that I happened to come across the
statement that I had written out in the rough notes for
that article which was done for that "UFO Pulse Analyzer"
magazine. My goodness, that was it. The year before we
had found out about the connection. In '83 I saw that
little note, and I said, 'My God...he was told the truth'.
And later on...in 1982 there was this symposium...the
MUFON symposium in Toronto at the Westbury Hotel. I
talked to Bill Moore privately at that point. He was
one of the speakers there...and I helped run the
convention a little bit, and I said to Bill, 'You know
the Robert Sufferin case?" He said [Moore], "Yeah, I
remember that." [Fenwick] Because he had read the whole
article, and so on; and I had told him what had transpired
and so on, and he was quite interested in that. And I
said to him, '...when those three military officers
talked to Sufferin, they really gave him everything on
this Project Aquarius, it seems to me.' Then I said to
Bill, 'Do you think that this has happened prior to...a
month or two prior to somebody else maybe?' [making
reference to the 1975 Sufferin incident] And he said,
'Yeah, in the United States it happened twice, between
June and October' [1975]. Two other people were told
in the United States the same information was given to
them."
<Mickus> "In 1975?"
<Fenwick> "In '75 yes, just after that."
<Mickus> "So those two would have been before the agreement [U.S.-
EBE agreement] then, right?"
<Fenwick> "No, the agreement was in June of 1975. The Robert
Sufferin case occurred on October 7th. Somewhere between
June and October of '75, two other close encounters
occurred in the United States in which aliens had
nearly been killed...by a car or whatever, I don't
know how. But Bill wouldn't go into detail on that. I
questioned him, but he refused to go into any detail
on that. He knew about it...through Condor and Falcon.
And it was a test of the psychological reactions of
people to the fact that we are the ETs [in reference to
earlier statements by Fenwick as to our alien heritage]
...this is not our home planet."
<Mickus> "So that was the reason for spilling the beans to these
three, relatively simple folk?"
<Fenwick> "Yes, thats right. And there's something else also...
When Tracy Torme visited Toronto, he worked for CTV
[Canadian Television Network], he was a script-writer
for them; he arranged in advance, through Bill Moore, to
visit us...in my apartment in fact. And he talked a little
bit about what he had heard. Later on he told us all that
I have told you...through Bill. He got it through Bill
Moore. We asked him what the classified information would
mean to the human race. What areas of the human race...of
human endeavour or aspects of human interest [that] would
be most affected if ALL the information about Project
Aquarius came out in the open. And he unhesitatingly said,
'Religion.' He said that there would be mass suicides,
those who were extremely religious among the Christian
community would commit suicide. And he said, anthropology,
..Science would be heavily affected by it. Anthropology,
History..., you take just WW II [for example]. If the
historians knew that...and they are not on a need to know
basis, they are not going to be told unless the entire
world knows. This would create one of the biggest upheavals
in all the universities, and all the history teachers in
the world, and professors, would really be astounded if
they knew that that was fact. And he said that a lot people
wouldn't believe it if it were told to the public. There
would be some panic, there would be suicides. I said, 'well
maybe there wouldn't be that many', but he said [Torme]
'Yes, there would be a fair number...in the millions'.
But there are billions of people in the world, so that
percentage wise its not a lot. But, 'This is why,' he
said [speaking again of Torme] 'the information is not
being told to the public. Because it would affect people
too adversely.'"
<Mickus> "The War-of-the-Worlds syndrome?"
<Fenwick> "Yes, that's right. That is their mental attitude...the
people in Project Aquarius who don't want the information
released,...not [the attitude] of the 10 people who have
talked [Condor & Falcon being 2 of the 10] out of the 24.
There are 24 people in Aquarius, total. 10 of the 24 have
talked. The other 14 don't want the information released
because they have that attitude...War-of-the-World's
thing...mass panic and so on. And I think that in the
atomic age that we live in, we're passed that stage...if
you can learn to live with the Bomb...and not worry that
much outwardly...maybe inwardly I guess. This generation
is used to that threat hanging over them. If they heard
this information, it wouldn't upset this generation, the
present generation as much. And this attitude of the
younger generatiomn...of not being upset too much about
it is why those people have talked, why the rebels have
talked." By the way, the rebels are Vietnam veterans."
<Mickus> "All 10 of them?"
<Fenwick> "All of them. They're all Nam veterans."
<Mickus> "And what is the range of rankings, and their ages?"
<Fenwick> "From Colonel up to..., well one of them is a 2-star
General. I don't know any names. I know Condor is a
black man by the way. They were in Nam, and they saw
their own officers kill their own men under the
influence of drugs. And they decided that whatever they
did in peacetime, somehow they would get back at the
American government. They all...these happened by
coincidence, or not,...to all get involved in the UFO
phenomenon. And these people in Aquarius are full-time
on it. And they decided..., they got together...over a
period of time, very clandestinely,...and word went
from one to another, [in effect agreeing that they]
'...would approach someone neutral in the UFO field,
someone who is not affiliated with any major
organizations, someone who is reliable...' And they
picked on Bill Moore. And he got a telephone call
from one of them, and they arranged to meet...I think
it was at a 'McDonalds' in fact...in Phoenix if I'm
not mistaken. Bill mentioned this."
"There's a lot of information that we have gotten.
Now, Tracy Torme told us that he had heard this from
Bill Moore, and Bill was under sedation for back
trouble. Bill started talking...and didn't realize it.
And Tracy told us, 'Don't tell ANYONE that you got
the information from Bill Moore. And to this day, Bill
Moore doesn't know that we got it through Tracy. He
wasn't supposed to reveal it. He told us about 15%...
15% of the classified information under Project Aquarius."
<Mickus> "That he [Torme] knows?"
<Fenwick> "That he knows. He knows all of it. So does Bill Moore,
Bill told him everything."
<Mickus> "Torme knows all of it?"
<Fenwick> "Torme knows all of it, and so does Moore. Bill Moore
told Torme this. Torme is, by the way the son, the oldest
son of Mel Torme the singer. I've met Mel in town here
one time. This is what he told us. He said [Tracy], 'I
can't tell you anymore.' And he later on told Moore to...
[?] ..Harry and Joe near New York city. They drove down
there with their wives or girlfriends whatever, and they
met him in a motel...and he started talking...and he
wouldn't allow them to make notes. Nothing, just verbal.
Hear it, and remember it. And he told me when they came
back. Outdoors we were walking along the street one night,
and it's dark, and they're telling me when no one was
around...there was no one within sight, in the area I
live in. So that no one would over hear...not that a
satellite couldn't pick-up the conversation...but
certainly no one on the ground, so they were careful in
that respect."
One thing you have to remember, when you are talking about
the UFO phenomenon...and here I'm showing my conservative
bent..., and that is, let us suppose that the information
posed by Condor and Falcon on that show, and told to Bill
Moore, is all false. That everything is false. Its all
disinformation...or what's know in as 'grey' propaganda,
a bit of truth mixed in with a lot of phony things. Let
us suppose that all of this, all of what I have said to
you about Project Aquarius...[that] the classified
information supposedly, is all false. If in fact it was
deliberately promulgated to test a reaction among
UFOlogists to this sort of information, as to whether they
could follow-up on it...or find out whether it is true
or not. That in itself would be of interest to people in
the UFO field. This is one of the reason's why I am talking about this informatioits all false, its certainly a
most interesting scenario. And the motivations behind the
spreading of...lies, from a psychological point of view, it
certainly is quite interesting. So I must...as I say...I must
predicate, I must be conservative here, predicate what I
have said as an afterword shall we say, with that statement.
All of what I've said, I'm sure is interesting to people.
Some of it to some people might be unbelievable, some of it
might be astonishing, some of the people might agree with
some of the things said, [saying to themselves], 'that sounds
plausible'. But when you use 'grey' propaganda, you mix in
plausible things with things that are false. That was done
with that television program show in England, called,
"Alternative 3"...they mixed in a few facts with a lot of
baloney. I have a letter from the guy who wrote the script,
on how they dreamed it up at lunch-time one day."
<Mickus> "Its interesting that you mention that. John Lear was one
of the first people I met on ParaNet, and we had a bit of a
dialogue on that very subject. I ended up finding a short
paragraph on it in a movie compendium [see A3MOVIE.TXT in the
UFOlogy File Area], and it ended basically by saying that
the movie was only fiction, but that people still view it
as being true."
<Fenwick> "There are still people who believe it. And there have been
mysterious deaths in England lately among people involved
with defense contracts, computer scientists. And I've got
newspaper clippings from England on that, just this last
week. So there is a bit of truth mixed in."
<Mickus> "Which elements in the movie do you think are true?"
<Fenwick> "Well, obviously that people have died, but whether they
are coincidental or not, we don't know."
<Mickus> "What about this thing about a Moonbase?"
<Fenwick> "No. I don't think so. I've talked to Buzz Aldrin about that
on the phone. And I said, "Ah, somebody's trying to dream up
a story for the National Enquirer...what nonsense.' [Aldrin
said] 'I didn't see any bases on the moon while we were up
there on Apollo 11, thats' a lot of nonsense.' He denied it.
Technically there could be bases on the moon underground, NASA
has the capabilities now, they had them years ago. In the
1960's I wrote a full page article for "Daily Commercial News"
on underground construction on the moon, I still have a copy
of the article. All the technical data is available in the
Toronto Public Library. I did research for weeks and weeks on
that."
<Mickus> "The hard part is getting the equipment up there."
<Fenwick> "Thats all. But the actual installation and so on, is not too
difficult."
<Mickus> "What other elements of the A3 Movie would you see as...."
<Fenwick> "Factual? That's all. I've given them to you. That's all."
<Mickus> "Now, these people who are coming up missing, what's
happening to them. They are being killed because of what
they know?"
<Fenwick> "I think that that's a Soviet thing. I think the Soviets are
involved in those..., those murders...those deaths, those
mysterious deaths in England lately."
<Mickus> "Oh, so you don't see those being related in anyway to goings
on in the field of UFOlogy?"
<Fenwick> "No, not at all."
<Mickus> "So the A3 Movie then, there's really no relation at all to.."
<Fenwick> "...not to UFO's."
<Mickus> "Its more an East-West thing?"
<Fenwick> "Yes, primarily that. And a test of reactions I suppose, as
some suspect, by the producers of the show, that's all. They
wanted to see how people would take it."
<Mickus> "And that's a recurring theme..."
<Fenwick> "I know it is. I have a whole file on A3...Alternative 3, a
thick file...ending with a letter from the producers."
<Mickus> "Saying that..."
<Fenwick> "Saying that its all a hoax. That they dreamed it up over
lunch one day. I have it on their official letterhead of
their production company."
<Mickus> "And you said that Torme was interested in it?"
<Fenwick> "Yeah, he hadn't seen the movie. It wasn't shown in the
states, it was shown in Canada twice on Global TV in
southern Ontario."
<Mickus> "When did he get in touch with you, years ago?"
<Fenwick> "No. Just a month ago. He happened to mention it."
<Mickus> "He's probably gotten that from Lear then..."
<Fenwick> "Oh yeah. Lear tends to repeat what he [has] heard. Lear
doesn't in terms of a lot of information on UFOs. Linda
Howe has told me that she was in touch with Lear...and
that they had all kinds of problems there..."
<Mickus> "...and disagreements?"
<Fenwick> "Disagreements, yes. One's repeating what the other says.
Back and forth, then it spreads around and so on. Rumours...
and things get exaggerated with a rumour, and this is what
has happened with Richard Doty...the Richard Doty case."
<Mickus> "Have you read the so called Lear document, the Lear text?"
<Fenwick> "No."
<Mickus> "Okay...but what you've heard about John Lear, he's
basically repeating things from other sources."
<Fenwick> "Sure. He's not doing any research himself."
Press <CR> !
[76650,1021]
FENW1.TXT 13-Nov-88(28-Nov-88) 32230 Accesses: 73
Press <CR> for next or type CHOICES !1
#: 157822 S10/Paranormal Issues
24-Nov-88 03:55:53
Sb: #157718-Fenwick.txt?
Fm: Tom Mickus 76650,1021
To: Sysop Ted Markley 76012,3361
Ted,
(#1) - Your rules which you set for yourself as Sysop , are entirely your own
business. I too have guidelines which I try to adhere to as a Sysop. Simply
put, I don't like one line characterizations.
(#2) - I never mistook your characterization of the Fenwick transcript as
"crap" as a reference to my reporting/interviewing style.
(#3) - I am already aware of Jim Speiser's attempts to solicit a response from
Tracy Torme relating to Fenwick's recollections of conversations with him. I AM
NOT aware of much other "follow-up".
(#4) - Regarding the National Enquirer. You said that they no longer report UFO
stories. I was under the impression that they tried to acquire the Gulf Breeze
photos if they were shown to be "authentic". Has anyone checked out the claim
(fantastic as it is) whether or not the Editor of the Enquirer is a "Deputy
Chief of one of the divisions within the CIA dealing with
counter-intelligence..", as Fenwick claims?
(#5) - >> "What have you done to research the file
that you uploaded?"
>> "Did you check out any of this stuff before publishing it."
After the interview was complete, my immediate priority was to get the tape
transcribed and distributed as fast as possible onto other BBS systems. Do you
really expect ME to research and follow-up on all of the claims? Apparently you
are, since that is your insinuation. Why do you think that I sent it out to
UFOlogy related BBS (and CI$) in the first place? Its much more efficient and
practical to have a large group of people involved in the effort than just me.
I did do some work in trying to follow-up of Fenwick's Harbinson book
revelations...and succeeded in obtaining first one copy (which I read before
the interview)...and I now have the other 2 books of the series.
- HOWEVER, the premise of your question is FLAWED.
Larry Fenwick DESERVES to be heard. I think he has earned that right, inpart
due to his 37 year involvement with the UFO phenomenon. He is a founding
director of the Canadian UFO Research Network (CUFORN)...which has been in
existence since 1977, and which publishes a Bulletin 6 times a year. He has
been involved in field investigations...abduction cases of his own, has
appeared on numerous radio and TV productions here in Canada, along with being
a financial supporter of the Fund for UFO Research....not too mention his many
other involvements. (READ the transcript for more references to his work.)
(#6) - >> "What is the significance of the text...enlighten me"
Must I lead you on the hand on everything Ted? There are MANY
significant points to be made about the text (in my estimation, AND others)
One of which is his statements regarding the "state of UFOlogy" today.
Fenwick spoke quite eloquently on the fact that more co-operation is required
among UFOlogists today, instead of following the "divide and conquer" stratagem
which seems to be what the U.S. goverment and its debunkers would much rather
have.
Another significant point, which you don't seem to appreciate, is that
Larry Fenwick spoke quite openly, and shared many of his private conversations
with us (the reader) which he has had with other noted UFOlogists. How often
have you had the opportunity to hear a UFOlogist speak as openly and frankly as
Fenwick did? (irrespective whether you agree with the content or not). By doing
so he of course opens himself up to scrutiny (and unfortunately as is often the
case RIDICULE) However Fenwick was fully cognizant of this fact, and he decided
not to refrain from speculation anyway.
(#7) - Incidentally, its NO SURPRISE that Lear.txt is not high on your so
called "credible " list. Tell us Ted, what is? When a person has a working
hypothesis....to them that becomes "the facts" until something new comes along
to change and supplant that view. LEar BELIEVES what he says....so don't try
and tell me that to him its only "speculation"....that is a cop-out.
Several months ago during a Sunday CO here at CI$..I suggested (to yourself
Ted, if I'm not mistaken)...that you INVITE Larry Fenwick on as a featured
guest. However, to the best of my knowledge, NO follow-up was done on that.
Why don't you take this opportunity to invite Larry Fenwick on? I will
gladly supply the computer-linkup, and act as a liaison if you wish. In light
of your statements Ted, I feel you owe him this opportunity to defend his
reputation.
(#8) - Ted...PLEASE go back and read some of my previous remarks that I made to
Gary Metzler regarding the Lear references. Then go back and RE-READ the
transcript regarding Fenwick's knowledge of John Lear. Fenwick has not read
Lear.txt, but IS aware of the claims contained therein (do you understand the
distinction??). He has responded to a variety of Lear's claims within the body
of the
transcript, if you wish to check and see.
(#9) - >> "If Fenwick is so disconnected from the movers and
shakers of the field, how can we think of him as any
kind of informed authority" (Ted Markley's remarks)
TED....HAVE YOU READ THE TRANSCRIPT???
Tell me, who do you consider to be the"movers and shakers" of UFOlogy? Do
the names Allen Hynek, Bill Moore, Tracy Torme, Stanton Freidman, Larry
Fawcett...etc, mean anything to you?? Fenwick has met and talked several times
with many of these individuals. He is NOT an armchair UFOlogist by any stretch.
Do the above names qualify as "movers and shakers"??
(#10) - Finally, please tell me Ted what YOU have been checking out on the
Fenwick.txt? I don't doubt that you are...but I haven't heard anything yet. ALL
of those concerned should take it UPON THEMSELVES to get involved....there is
enough "less-sensational" (BUT REMEMBER... WHEN IT COMES TO UFOLOGY WHAT ISN'T
SENSATIONAL??...reflect on that) statements made by Larry Fenwick that some
research and follow-up could be done by those who know how to go about it.
Please don't wait for me to give anyone the green light...it was GO long ago...
I have spent close to an hour and a half responding to your remarks
Ted....and where has it gotten us?? How much new info have we learned as a
group? Although one part of me enjoys verbal sparring....my better side
disgusts in it. Verbal combat with you is not my intention. It gets us NOWHERE!
Among my other questions Ted....I get the distinct impression that what
Fenwick says either disturbs you or upsets whatever conception you are
currently under regarding the origin/purpose/etc of the whole UFO - EBE
business. You are not the first to have been "provoked" into such a
reaction.....I see it all the time by people who know little or nothing about
UFOs (and you are NOT one of those people). But why the vehemence? I would
genuinely like to know.
I hope that we can put some of this emotion behind us...and start making
"progress" once again in our desire to obtain understanding. In closing, I
would just say that is was unfair of you to treat theFenwick transript as you
did, with little or no explanation until your most recent post. This is whole
experience has further opened my eyes...however I will resist the desire to let
it get to me. With the emotions and stakes involved, it is inevitable that
anyone can remain calm and composed.
-Tom Mickus <ParaNet Pi 416-244-9999>
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