Out of Body Experiences for EVERYONE!
by Dr. Ronald Siegel
OBE and Near-Death Experiences
SCS BOARD INTERVIEW ON OUT-OF-BODY AND NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCES
WITH DR. RONALD SIEGEL
Dr. Siegel received his B.A. degree in sociology from
Brandeis University and his M.A. and Ph.D. in psychology from
Dalhousie University (Canada). After a postdoctoral fellowship
in psychopharmacolgy at Albert Einstein College of Medicine in
New York, he joined in 1970 the faculty at the University of
California, Los Angeles, where he is now research psychologist in
the Department of Psychiatry and Biobehavioral Sciences. Dr.
Siegel is one of this country's leading experts in the field of
hallucinogens and hallucinations and is constantly appearing in
the local and national news media to discuss various drug related
topics. He has written numerous scientific works, including
articles in The American Journal of Psychiatry, The Journal of
the American Medical Association, Scientific American, and Omni
magazine. He co-edited Hallucinations: Behavior, Experience and
Theory (Wiley, 1975), and contributed the chapter on "Life after
Death" in Science and the Paranormal Scribners, 1981). In
addition to these academic pursuits, Siegel was the technical
advisor to the movie "Altered States", and has won many awards
for his poetry. A serious marathon runner, he reports that "the
only life after death I know of is when you cross the finish line
after 26.2 miles."
SCS: There has been a recent explosion of popular articles and
books stating that life after death is supported by hard
scientific data. This evidence comes from survivors of clinical
death, deathbed visions of terminal patients, and other sources
of data.
SCS: Dr. Siegel, you have investigated the near death experience
for many years with great thoroughness. Can you tell us what a
near death experience is?
SIEGEL: Our study of life after death is highly dependent on the
words, pictures, and other symbols used in description. Many of
these words have sensory qualities and describe such properties
as sight, sound, taste, and smell. Accident victims who have had
near death experiences often report visions of long, dark tunnels
or sounds of ringing and buzzing. Surgical patients who are
resuscitated following cardiac or respiratory failure frequently
report floating out of their bodies and watching the operation
from a distant perspective and many of them have an awareness of
returning to their physical body. Terminal patients often
experience unbidden memory images of long forgotten childhood
events and deceased relatives. These images arise with such
startling vividness that they often prompt the patient to react
by speaking with the image or moving toward it. Many people see a
blinding white light and regard it as a higher being or god. Some
of these people feel ecstasy in their experience.
SCS: Why did you become involved in investigating near death
experiences?
SIEGEL: All of the descriptions of the afterlife bear a strong
resemblance to people's descriptions of drug-induced
hallucinations or hallucinations produced by other conditions. I
was aware of the popular imagery associated with the near death
experience and was struck by the similarity of those kinds of
reports with those that I had gathered from my drug subjects and
from other subjects who were not even taking drugs.
SCS: What is a hallucination?
SIEGEL: It has to due with a change of attention in a person.
Hallucinations mean literally a wandering mind or a wandering in
attention. To that extent whenever we are even daydreaming
technically we are hallucinating. When the brain is really
roaring with LSD or in a state of extreme stress from a life-
threatening danger, or in a state of isolation there seems to be
a lot of wandering in mind that does not seem to be under
volitional control. Attention constantly shifts around. When such
a person is given a psychological or problem solving test they do
miserably on it, because they can't focus attention or
concentrate. The death bed is a very good place or very conducive
to these kinds of experiences. The person is lying down and is
quiet. This is the state into which we try to get our subjects.
We used hospital beds in a quiet room. The idea being to get the
person to shift from the external events to the internal world.
SCS: In many of the reports describing the near death experience
the patient was later able to accurately describe the
conversations of the doctors and nurses that took place while he
or she was unconscious. Is this evidence for an out-of-body
experience?
SIEGEL: No. The hearing of voices or other sounds is reminiscent
of surgical patients recovering from anesthesia who often recall
auditory stimuli that occurred during surgery. This is
particularly common with the dissociative anesthetics nitrous
oxide, ether and ketamine, which allow sensory input to the
brain.
SCS: What about the strength of the subject's conviction that he
or she was actually physically undergoing an out-of-body or near
death experience? Shouldn't that person be able to tell that
they are hallucinating?
SIEGEL: You can't tell anything from the conviction of those
reports. I heard similar convictions on the supposed reality of
experiences from my own subjects under the influence of drugs and
stress. These are very powerful experiences. The imbeddedness,
the concreteness, the veracity of the experience is so great that
it manifests itself in truthfulness. In our experiments we could
regulate the truthfulness of the experience by the dosage of the
drug. A low dose of the drug produced a mild image and no one was
fooled by that, but a very large dose of the drug produced very
intense experiences and people tend to make the transition from
what we call pseudo hallucinations to true ones..
SCS: What is the difference between a pseudo hallucination and a
true hallucination?
SIEGEL: Pseudo hallucinations are when I see that little green
man out there, but I know that he really is not there because I
say to myself "I've just taken acid and this is a trip." A true
hallucination is when I see that little green man out there and
by God he is really there. Now I'm going to get my gun and
protect myself. It is very easy to get carried away by this and
some people really do. The mechanism that helps explain exactly
what happens in the brain during all these states is fairly
complex and is still somewhat of a puzzlement to
neurophysiologists.
SCS: Some writers on the near death experience state that many of
the dying patients were not on drugs and their consciousness was
clear. They say these experiences were not hallucinations.
SIEGEL: It is important to note that hallucinations can occur in
states where consciousness is "clear." People can experience
hallucinations in states of sensory deprivation, extreme hunger,
cold, or stress. For instance, people can have a hallucination of
a dead relative or friend in states of clear consciousness when
triggered by emotional states surrounding death, such as
mourning. Recently, we did a study with different types of
hostages. Some of them were political and some had been
kidnapped or raped in cases. We even had a few alleged UFO
abductees. All of them had been subjected to some kind of stress,
some kind of life-threatening danger, and some kind of isolation.
Many of the hostages had visual or physical isolation for periods
of time ranging from a couple of hours up to over a year. We
noticed some striking similarities in the description of
hostages' experiences to that of the description of the near
death experience. The format of these descriptions was the same.
There were bright lights, tunnel perspectives; there was a
sensation of moving down that tunnel and being out of one's body.
SCS: Did you do any cross-cultural studies?
SIEGEL: Yes. I lived for a while with a group of Indians in the
High Sierra Madres, in Central Mexico, and one particular village
that I chose to go to had not been visited by a white team in
their three-thousand-year history. In this particular tribe I
knew that we were tapping a source of people who were not
contaminated, that hadn't been exposed to Micky Mouse cartoons.
They didn't have any of our cultural biases and we studied the
use of their peyote, a cactus extract, which contains mescaline
as the active hallucinogen and their reports were virtually
identical to the near death experience. We also did some studies
with the Indians in the Amazon basin who use ayahuasca, which is
a visionary vine that produces lots of imaginary experiences. So
we found that there was a cultural consistency too.
SCS: In other words, you had a lot of common states to a wide
variety of situations?
SIEGEL: That's right. It seems to reflect some common wiring in
the visual and central nervous system that we all have. While the
Indian may see a long dark cave and we may see a long train
tunnel the structure and forms of the hallucination were still
very similar. We were very pleased with the consistency of this
data. We were able to go into the literature and look at other
reports and find that with other groups of people and with a
mixed variety of situations it was pretty much the same, be they
in states of insulin shock or hyperglycemia. Look at the writings
of Jacque Monroe, a psychiatrist, who wrote the first book on
hashish and mental illness, in which he said the best way to
study mental illness and some of the paranormal phenomenon
associated with it was to provoke it artificially through the
injection of hashish which he went ahead and did. At that time in
France his medical colleagues were very reluctant to accept his
advice but some of the Bohemian artists of nineteenth-century
Paris were much more receptive and all of their writings
testified to the kind of experiences that were possible with
hashish. There were lots of near death experiences in their
writings, some of which I have recently transcribed and
published.
SCS: Can you elaborate on this idea that the similarity of
hallucinations are due to the common wiring of our visual and
nervous systems?
SIEGEL: Given a wide variety of stimulations to the brain, the
brain responds in a finite number of ways. The patterns that we
have called "hallucinatory form constants," i.e., the near death
experience and archetypical images, are really descriptions of
the finite patterns of the way the brain responds to an infinite
variety of stimulations. The simple imagery consists of tunnels,
bright lights and colors, and geometric forms. This is probably
caused by phosphenes, which are visual sensations arising from
the discharge of neurons in structures of the eye. They also
reflect the electrical excitation of organized groups of cells in
the visual cortex of the brain. In other words, although you can
shake up the brain by many different methods it still transmits
out in pretty much the same way.
SCS How about people who are not wired in the same way. People
who are congenitally blind, for instance?
SIEGEL: When we give hallucinogens to congenitally blind
individuals we find that they hear the echoes in the room
becoming alternatively farther away or closer. This is the same
dimensional shift that we find in another modality for the
sighted person who would see images becoming very small or
getting very large.
SCS: What causes the famous tunnel perspective?
SIEGEL: This is probably due to the stimulation of the central
nervous system that mimics the effects of light on the retina. It
can also occur when the electrical activity in the brain is
altered in such a way that the threshold for perception of
phosphenes (electrical activity in the visual system) is lowered,
and bright lights are seen in otherwise dark surroundings. This
point can create a tunnel perspective.
SCS: Do you have some simple analogy to help explain the
relationship between the near death and out of body experiences
to hallucinations?
SIEGEL: The analogy that I have found very useful in
understanding this is an analogy that I call the fire in the
brain. Picture a man in his living room, standing at a closed
window opposite his fireplace and looking out at the sunset. He
is absorbed by the view of the outside world and does not
visualize the interior of the room. As darkness falls outside,
though, the images of the objects in the room behind him can be
seen reflected dimly in the window. With the deepening of
darkness the fire in the fireplace illuminates the room and the
man can now see a vivid reflection of the room, which appears to
be outside the window. Now he throws into the fire a couple of
logs and the fire roars brightly. He turns around to look out the
window. He still can't see because it's dark, but he sees a
reflection of himself and the furniture in the room on the glass
as if it came from the outside. The analogy is that the window is
the window of our eyes and ears and senses of the real world. The
fire is the degree of electrical excitation that is produced in
the brain, so when it's dark at night and not much is happening,
and the fire roars brightly in your brain you've got a lot of LSD
there. For example, you may no longer see the real world but you
see the furniture of your own mind, your memories, images,
fantasies, and daydreams reflect as if they came from the
outside. The brighter the fire the more vivid those reflections
become until some people become sort of like Alice going through
the looking glass. They think that all this stuff on the other
side is real. Keeping this analogy in mind you can produce those
experiences without lighting the fire too much, by just turning
off the lights on the outside and using the normal fire in the
brain. You can stir up the fire or you can depress it. Drug use
is an easy way of manipulating that fire in the brain. There are
other ways of doing it, but it is an easy way that we felt that
we could control and use very precisely. When you reduce the
illumination levels outside you raise the awareness of the
internal events. Maybe that's why the imagery that's associated
with meditation is very similar to the imagery associated with
hallucinations. Whether you light the fire within with drugs or
turn off the lights from outside. You get the same kinds of
events.
SCS: When did you first discover that the near death and out-of-
body experiences were related to hallucinations?
SIEGEL: It started in the 1960s when I was a graduate student in
experimental psychology. I was working with brain chemistry and
changes in animals during learning. I was also clinically
studying drugs and testing marijuana. At that time the literature
on the subject was very poor. I had made an extract of some
marijuana and injected it into a pigeon. The pigeon wouldn't
perform in the Skinner box. It was quiescent. I then injected a
homing pigeon with the extract and threw it out the laboratory
window. The pigeon did a kamikaze nose dive straight to the
street below. I was fascinated by this. There was a little bit of
the extract left and I took some of it and did a nose dive
straight to the floor of the laboratory. I remained there for
about eighteen hours surrounded by a fantasmagoria of imagery and
experiences. They reminded me of all the things that I had read
about in the history of psychology, including the stuff I had
read about concerning the psychical society and their quest into
the supernatural world. I had them all. It seems as if I had
every experience I had ever read about during those eighteen
hours. It was a very strong experience and I am happy I survived
it because it was a fairly toxic dose. When I recovered from that
I decided that this was a very interesting experience. I wanted
to apply the techniques of experimental psychology to the study
of this phenomenon.
SCS: What does your research into the near death experience lead
us to conclude?
SIEGEL: We end up being able to say that the near death
experience or after life experience is uncannily similar to the
experiences that are produced by a wide variety of other
situations. But similarities are not explanations and they are no
proof that they really are the same. We will probably never be
able to convince anyone that they are the same until our
technology is able to communicate to the other side.
SCS: Do you have any concluding remarks?
SIEGEL: In the past, dying and death were often accompanied by
fear and loneliness, as if the individual were possessed by Pan,
the Greek god of lonely places and panic. The belief in life
after death provided much comfort and security. Through the
research and explanations discussed here, investigators have
begun to examine the nature of these life after death experiences
as hallucinations, as based on stored images in the brain. Like a
mirage that shows a magnificent city on a desolate expanse of
ocean or desert, the images of hallucinations are actually
reflected images of real objects located elsewhere. The city is
no less intriguing and no less worthy of study or visitation
because it is not where we think it is. With such understanding,
we can counsel the dying to take the voyage not with Pan at their
side, but with Athena, Greek goddess of wisdom.
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