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Internet Marketing Digest 0431


Internet Marketing Discussion List

Digest #0431

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In this digest:
Re: REALITY CHECK (Skip Montanaro <[email protected]>)
In favor of unsolicited email ([email protected] (Roger North))
Some Thoughts (Paul Meyers II <[email protected]>)
Re: MSN swallowing Internet ? (Not a paranoiac PoV ([email protected] (Jeroen
Doucet))
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Date: 28 Aug 1995 07:56:03 -0700
From: Skip Montanaro <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: REALITY CHECK

Sanford,

You forget one big difference between the bulk email case and the
AT&T/MCI/Sprint example. The difference is that many people still pay
by-the-message for email, either directly or at least indirectly (by staying
connected longer and thus paying for more connect time).

A more egregious example in the telemarketing arena is the market for credit
cards. I bet I get four or five calls weekly. Now it's annoying as all
get-out, especially since the sales people are so obnoxious. Still, I can
just hang up. Now imagine how the situation would change if I had to pay a
few cents for each phone call I received. After awhile I'd get pretty
pissed. After a little bit longer I might well be screaming for
legislation. Nonetheless, it might appear to "work" for the credit card
sales people. That wouldn't make it right.

It doesn't make it right in your case that it "works" for you and your
customers if it "doesn't work" for the people you send mail to. You are
ignoring half the equation. I think it is you who are only looking at half
the equation.

I'm lucky. I pay a flat fee for my Internet connection, so in monetary
terms it doesn't cost me anything to hit the 'd' key. Nevertheless, I get
over 100 messages a day. I can't take much more, even though it doesn't
cost me anything in dollar terms to receive more. I have little enough time
as it is. And time, so they say, is money. Please leave me to spend mine
as I wish.

- --
Skip Montanaro [email protected] (518)372-5583
Musi-Cal on the Web: http://www.calendar.com/concerts/
Musi-Cal via email: [email protected] (msg body of "help" for full info)
Internet Conference Calendar: http://www.calendar.com/conferences/

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Date: 28 Aug 1995 08:02:15 -0700
From: [email protected] (Roger North)
Subject: In favor of unsolicited email

In certain situations where very valuable information is being delivered to
a very targeted audience, unsolicited or "cold call" emails are beneficial
both to the recipient and the marketer alike.

We have a venture capital company that makes considerable use of very
targeted cold call emails. We send a brief introductory letter (text upon
request) to the CEO or CFO or general mailbox of computer, biotech and
medical companies which are on the WWW. We ask for an opportunity to be of
service to the company and are ready with a followup response to any replies.

Since virtually all companies in these three industries need or have needed
corporate funding, we have found an overwhelmingly positive response - one
flame vs. eleven confirmed meetings for a 200 piece trial mailing. Not only
that, but several companies have replied positively for future reference.

Needless to say, we are going to continue on a larger scale, and if the
Guardians of the Internet don't like it, too bad. Let them come down from
their ivory towers and live in the real world for a change.

Roger North
*************************************************************
Roger North * FALCON FINANCIAL*
Associates of Sommerset Capital Corp.
<http://nweb.netaxis.com/falcon>
"RAISE MONEY FOR ANY BUSINESS PURPOSE"
"Do you see a man who is diligent in business?
He will serve before kings; he will not serve before
ordinary men." Proverbs 22:29
*************************************************************

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Date: 28 Aug 1995 08:05:38 -0700
From: Paul Meyers II <[email protected]>
Subject: Some Thoughts

As a person with an interest in learning about marketing on the
Internet, and with a general adherence to the rule that "A gentleman does
not offend another person... accidentally" I signed on to this list in
the hopes of learning how to follow the conventions of the net, and still
get a decent return for my time invested.

A lot of work for someone who asks no money upfront, and only gets
paid if and when the customer is happy with the product. Yet I see a
great deal of potential here.

I first got into this bit of research as a result of seeing quite a
few posts about "spamming" on some of the 'net related echoes in amateur
networks. A valuable red flag for me.

As a person not yet completely familiar with, or involved in, network
advertising, I thought it might be useful to offer my reactions and
responses to some of the thoughts expressed. I still think more like a
typical consumer than a marketer.

My aim here is obviously not to instruct, as you folks know a whole
lot more about this topic than I. I just want to make a few thoughts
available in the hopes that they may spur other, more useful, thoughts,
and maybe to give a different perspective.

>> There are a lot of newbies jumping on the internet by the thousands,
>> that do not subscribe to this train of thought,

Very true. I am one of those persons. As a salesman, I am not easily
offended by commercial intrusions. In the same vein, I have learned that
many others are. This juggling act is not restrained to simply the
Internet. I do my best to pre-qualify prospects through mailing lists and
whatever other means I can to cut down on my costs of time and
communications expense.

I don't want to talk to someone whom I am going to offend, or who has
no interest in what I am selling. It seems that this same approach could
be applied here, and drastically reduce the hassles inherent in direct
email advertising.

>> People use the internet to share and receive information. Wouldn't it
be >> logical to assume that many people want to exchange commercial
>> information?

Yes. But how much of the initial and closing portions of marketing and
sales have to do with logic ? We all know, but perhaps sometimes forget,
that if we perturb our prospective customer in either portion of the
presentation, they are gone. This is particularly true in a format where
the prospect can leave at any time in the process, without the pressures
of "civility" to keep them listening.

Some people find it much harder to hang up on a human being than to
press DELETE.

>> Guess what? AT&T, MCI, and SPRINT all do just that. And it WORKS!

True, but from what I hear from people in the industry, they lose 90%
of these customers back to their original carrier within 30-60 days.
Loyalty in the long distance industry is not something that many carriers
can claim.

I, personally speaking, do not want to cultivate that type of customer
base. I have seen some excellent posts here regarding the *keeping* of
customers, and for that I am grateful to the authors thereof.

>> Oh, and it DOES cost the recipient money. Time is money. I'm sure
>> people could put a price tag on time they designate for relaxation at
>> home.

This is a good argument for the email side. I scan my messages for
content that interests me, and I can tell very quickly if I want to read
it. If not... flush. No pressure from the pleasant sounding telemarketer
or cheerful salesman, no guilt, and no vulgar abuse.

>> So, what's the difference between these companies' practices and
>> bulk-email practices.

See above. Also, those people who are charged for incoming mail. I
have no such restriction, and the 5 megs of space I am alloted by my
service provider would hold a lot of mail. If I get *that* much, I would
get a whole lot pickier about what I read.

I would suggest that anyone mailing unsolicited email to whatever
major services like AOL or Compuserve which charge for incoming mail be
able to be charged for that message. At .15 per, it's still cheaper than
the USPS, and it would be fairer to the recipient.

>> If everyone buys into the "netiquette" thing, then practices like
>> mass-email may never be properly explored.

I think we have to remember that Netiquette developed originally as a
result of the origins of the Internet, ie, an industrial and educational
research tool. Many people on the net right now have adopted it as the de
facto standard for reasons of their own, all typical of consumers and
members of any community. Several of these would be:

1. Everyone else is doing it this way, and they were here before us, so
they must know best.

2. As a crutch to avoid things they don't want to deal with, and don't
know how to say no to on the basis of their own preferences.

3. A form of group elitism. Ugly, but often true.

4. Philosophical: Tax money pays for this, don't commercialise it. (
They probably also don't realise how much of the nets' structure is
supported commercially already.)

All of these are valid *feelings*. And not everyone shares them.
Netiquette is a social structure, and as such, it will evolve as
responsible people put forth viable options. I believe this is the most
valuable function of discussions like this.

>> We don't need a government to step in to help control internet behavior.

Couldn't agree more. We need self-control.

>> Netiquette is an opinion. It's not a law. It can change with the times.

It is a cultural norm, not an opinion, and there is a vast difference.
And I agree, it will change. In what ways it changes depends on people
like those carrying on this discussion, and others like it.

>> Many of these people are accustomed to receiving "JUNK" postal mail, and
>> solicitations from every direction, on land.

True. Look how much of it lands in the trash. I throw out a *lot* of
mail without reading it, but nothing that is targeted toward something in
which I have an interest. People who stay on the net, rather than the
curiosity seekers, leave footprints. They *tell* you what they are
interested in by what they read, where they leave their names, etc.

And they are generally affluent and well educated. A newsletter that I
get recently listed a profile of the typical Internet buyer:
(paraphrased) Male, 35-50, affluent. Typical purchase price: $1000.
Typical purchase: Technical material, either hardware, software or
business related. Pays by credit card over voice line, or through direct
mail response piece.

In other words, the person who knows what they want, and will pay for
it. That is a market I would like to cultivate. :-) And they are not
likely to object to a carefully targeted e-mailing. But *don't* waste
their time.

>> The pages of phone books show an * to alert telemarketers not to call.

Most telemarketers don't get leads from phone books. I don't know that
*any* direct mail marketers do. And a lot of people wouldn't pay
attention to this type of thing anyway. That's a shame.

>> costs of delivery (especially in network congestion)

With advances in telecommunications technology that are out there
right now, and several that are coming soon, especially in fiber-optics,
that will not be a concern for long at all.

>> Besides the burden of proof it wrong: the present default assumption
>> is that no one should receive unsolicited e-mail advertisting,

Key phrase: default *assumption*. Unless the service provider they use
is charging them to receive mail, (a practice that is soon to go the way
of the buffalo), this is nothing more than an expressed preference. I
think the biggest problem is the unprofessional way a lot of people in
the past have been bombed with mail on topics in which they had no
interest. I have seen that notion expressed by some of the staunchest
critics of unsolicited email.

I still don't see why they get so upset about it, but it's a reality.

>> and you can't change that unilaterally or get a net-wide consensus
>> to change it overnight.

Do we need to ? You will never get 10's of millions of people to agree
on anything, much less advertising. How many people do you need to sell
your product to to make the money you want ? 1/10 of 1% of 20 million
people is 20,000 customers. Is that enough ?-)

Seems to me the trick is to reach the ones you want without creating
trouble for yourself or your prospects in the process. I think that is
where the whole discussion is pointed.

>> Here's what I do with stuff I don't want to read: DELETE.

Bravo ! I don't remember the gentleman's name, but I really like his
postings. Common sense rears it's lovely head.

>> the ability to register with some central organization to be taken off
>> junk e-mail lists.

How about a central registry to put your name ON email lists.
Specific, narrowly targetd lists. If this was a feature that was openly
touted as a feature of the Internet, it could generate enough names to
feed one heck of a lot of virtual salesmen and their kids. And it would
be a simple sell.

" Keep up to date on the latest information on topics and products of
interest to YOU ! Let us know your interests, and we will send you
regular updates on products and services to help keep you on top of the
heap...blah blah, yak yak"

Brag up the speed of the Internet as an aspect of currentness of
information, time and money savings due to direct shipping of products,
etc. I talk to people every week that look at the net as a way to *get*
these kinds of advantages ! And when they get on, they are stumped as to
how to go about it.

The "clearing-house" pages that I see mentioned here are a good start,
but a lot of people don't know where to find them. Maybe a business
oriented version of the "Who's who on the Internet", with a search engine
like Yahoo has would be the answer. Combined with a database of people
who *want* specific topic email ads, this would be a service worth paying
for. And it seems that it would be a lot cheaper per prospect than direct
mail via USPS.

It could make someone a lot of money, and I would think the response
rate would blow direct mail away.

>> People (some of us anyway) want to be informed of interesting stuff --

Sounds like a prospect for just the type of thing I mentioned above.

>> I would almost want to see reputable mail houses get in the business of
>> creating e-mail "junk" mail lists -- where you check your preferences
>> and they send you stuff, or loadable URLs, every so often.

URL notifying service.... Excellent idea. Make it a practice for
companies to attach objective useful information that people can use
regardless of whether or not they purchase, and I think the screams would
die off in a heartbeat.

Another thought which may be redundant: How many companies are engaged
in trading of links ? Eg... An office furniture supplier trades links
with a copier/fax dealer, a computer dealer, mailing list brokers, etc.

I have been looking, and I am sure they are out there, but this type
of hyper-mall is hard to find. The ones I have seen are not as complete
as I would think is called for, but they are a start.

>> Our approach is to PARTICIPATE in newsgroups and mailing lists which are
>> relevant to our field.

I have saved the post this came from for my own personal reference, as
this is the single best post, and the most useful information, out of all
the gold I have found here. To the person who wrote this: Thank you.

I feel that this is exactly what the people on the net desire. Useful
information to help solve problems, offered in a respectful and
non-intrusive way. I know it is what I like.

>> One or two objected but the overwhelming majority of responders said
>> that vendor and manufacturer participation was welcome and valued.

This is an interesting scenario. May I ask, were the majority of these
people businesspersons ? If so, they may not be a wholly representative
sample of the people that would flame over some tiny piece of email. If
not, then we have a major assumption under serious challenge.

>> When all of us sort our smail, we have an automatic BS filter-factor
>> that simply puts most of the junk mail into the round file.

Doing this with email is not only faster, we don't have to take the
garbage out afterward. :-)

>> That's both an artform and a science. And the same craft can be applied
>> to email.

Excellent point. I have noticed that a great many people in the
amateur nets, Fido etc, have a knack for writing headers that get
attention, and even if their posts are of questionable merit, get responses.

The header is your envelope. *There's* a challenge.

>> I think many people would welcome the opportunity to receive a broad
>> base of advertising, IF they felt they were in control of that happening
>> initially, not just after the fact.

I agree. I think the "Put me on the list for these types of mailings"
would start enough people on the bandwagon to ensure that a lot of
marketers would be able to make do nicely on those alone. As the word
spread, and people get used to the idea of commercial email, the violent
negative response would diminish.

And as marketers become better at targeting the interests of their
prospective customers, we will finally be on a par with the offline world.

As soon as I start hearing jokes about the modeming salesman and the
Moderators daughter, I will know we've arrived.

Having said all that, I'll go back to my corner now.

___
O | |\
I / _|__|/_ Straight Off The Wire From :
I/\/_[____]----------------------------------------------------<=
`--; | | Paul Myers (1:260/158) [email protected]
_|< |_____|

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Date: 28 Aug 1995 08:08:24 -0700
From: [email protected] (Jeroen Doucet)
Subject: Re: MSN swallowing Internet ? (Not a paranoiac PoV)

[email protected] (James Cameron)wrote:

>>From: [email protected] (Joram Rozewicz)
>
>>I have come across an article published in a French newspaper (Liberation,
>>24 Aug.95) regarding Windows 95 and the threat that MSN might represent to
>>the Internet.

- --snip--

>A far more likely scenario is that MSN will grow and offer
>a variety of interesting services much like AOL. There will
>be furious competition among MSN and AOL and Compuserve and
>the telecoms for both consumers and content providers, but
>the Internet will continue to evolve and attract both
>businesses and consumers at an even more furious pace.

I totally agree with James here. I think it MSN will not take over the
Internet for the same rason why AOL and Compuserv were forced to put
gateways in place. The appeal of an open standard interconnection network is
far greater than a closed system like MSN or any other. These closed systems
will eventually end up moderating information on the Net and adding their
own info for paying customers. Acces to this network will become a
commodity. There are so many companies now moving into the accesproviding
business that networks (like MSN) that have to build their own dedicated
internet acces network will just be too expensive. In the Netherlands for
example MSN costs about $100 a year and $5 dollar an hour (so I am told) on
top of this you will have to pay non-local telephone charges ($5 per hour
9-5 and half in off peak). This is twice as much as the Dutch on line
service Planet Internet, that also provides local acces. In some areas in
the Netherlands you can acces the Internet via CATV for about $20 a month
(156 Kb/s). The bottom line is that you will have to provide acces yourself
to keep your system closed. This accces providing is just to expensive in
the European telecom market, given the prices of leased lines and even local
calls.
I have heard more Europeans expressing their fears of World dominiation by
MSN (eg http://www.iw.com/simba/95082403.htm). Most of them are not really
net-savvy or have a very particular interest of their own, like Bertelsmann
who have teamed up with AOL. It is a subject that is especially appealing to
the French, who are very frightened of cultural imperialism by the Yanks.
The last example of this fear was their amandment to the EC rules regarding
the quotums for European productions on European television.
Finally I *do* think that the feature providing acces to MSN in windows 95
should default be less in your face than it is now.

Reactions?

Jeroen Doucet
[email protected]
Office: (+31) (0)3406-65800 Facsimile: (+31) (0)3406-62893
X-400:I=JDO;G=Jeroen;S=Doucet;O=DDV;PRMD=GNS-X400;ADMD=400NET;C=NL
Member of Instant - http://huizen.dds.nl/~instant

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