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Internet Marketing Digest 0423
Internet Marketing discussion mailing list
Digest #0423
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This list is moderated by Glenn Fleishman <[email protected]>
For info about the list, send INFO INTERNET-MARKETING to [email protected]
Send posts to [email protected]
To UNSUBSCRIBE send any text to [email protected]
To switch to single mail message mode (rather than digest) send
SET INET-MARKETING MAIL NOACK to the address [email protected]
To switch back to digest mode, send: SET INET-MARKETING MAIL DIGEST
Complete list archives: <http://www.popco.com/hyper/internet-marketing/>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In this digest:
D.I.T. Web Marketing Survey `95 ([email protected] (Robert D. Abbey))
It's Easy to Subscribe or Unsubscribe to Online Business Today ("Online
Business Today (OBT), Home Page Press, Inc." <[email protected]>)
Re: Brave New World ([email protected])
Re: bulk e-mail (Matthew James Marnell <[email protected]>)
Advice on Marketing on the Internet Title ("Pitcher, Sharon"
<[email protected]>)
Re: Bulk e-mail discussion ([email protected] (Brandi Jasmine))
How about a bulk-email FAQ? (Skip Montanaro <[email protected]>)
Re: Unsolicited email ([email protected] (Bob Gaskins))
Re: Internic Registrations pass to 100,00 mark ("Chris Harrower"
<silver@postoffice.ptd.net>)
Corporate resistance to the Internet ("Peter H. Lemieux" <[email protected]>)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 21 Aug 1995 13:30:05 -0700
From: [email protected] (Robert D. Abbey)
Subject: D.I.T. Web Marketing Survey `95
Hi Everyone,
You may recall my post on the 17th of August asking fellow
list-members to visit the site of my Web Marketing Survey:
http://www.internet-eireann.ie/dit/survey.htm
A number of listmembers visited the site, and I thank them for doing
so. However, it has come to my attention that at some time on Friday 18th of
August, the e-mail account I had set up to receive completed questionnaires,
went out of service through a technical fault beyond my control. This
situation went un-noticed until Sunday the 20th of August. Essentially this
means that all forms filled in during that time, were bounced from my
providers e-mail system, right back to the original respondent (resulting in
them getting two e-mail`s, one stating that an error had occurred, and the
other containing the code from their replies to the questionnaire).
If you were one of those people who took the time and effort to fill
out the survey, only to have it bounce back to you, then I apologise
sincerely for any inconvenience or consternation that this has caused you.
As the responses were not posted to my account, I have no record of people
who attempted to fill in the questionnaire, so an all-round apology is
necessary.
Murphy`s law appears to have me in a strangle-hold, however the
situation has now been remedied, and (if you consider it a fair request) I
would like to invite unsuccessful respondents to try my site again. The URL is
http://www.internet-eireann.ie/dit/survey.htm
Alternately, if you responded and you received the e-mail of your
response, you can forward this to me, at the following address:
[email protected]
Once again I apologise for this situation, and assure all potential
respondents that the survey is now working perfectly - it will terminate in
three days. Your support in visiting my site would be greatly appreciated,
as this downtime has reduced the number of respondents that the survey has
amassed.
Thanks for your support,
Robert D. Abbey
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert D. Abbey | Dublin Institute of Technology
e-mail:[email protected] | Web Marketing Survey `95
e-mail:[email protected] |
http://www.internet-eireann.ie/dit/survey.htm
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 21 Aug 1995 14:28:15 -0700
From: "Online Business Today (OBT), Home Page Press, Inc." <[email protected]>
Subject: It's Easy to Subscribe or Unsubscribe to Online Business Today
At 09:26 AM 8/21/95 -0700, you wrote:
>From: [email protected] (Kirsten Alexander)
>
>I share both Mary and Matt's experience of being unexpectedly subscribed to
>Online Business Today, the most useless publication I've seen on the net.
>They also seem incabable of unsubscribing me--there is another one in my
>mailbox today, this time with no unsubscribe directions.
Dear Kirsten,
To our knowledge, OBT has never received an "unsubscribe" message from
your address. We make that statement because OBT has no desire to mail
to anyone not interested in our topics or content. We act same-day whenever
we receive a "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" message.
Please be aware that any e-mail (which provides a matching address) requesting
deletion from our reader's database is promptly erased. Others who read
"Internet Marketing discussion list" and wish to remove their address from
OBT's list are invited to do so. Likewise, those interested in *business*
topics
relating to online entrepreneurship are invited to subscribe. We wish to mail
to *serious* business people. To subscribe to OBT: <free.[email protected]>.
Thank you
[email protected]
Home Page Press, Inc., publishers of To subscribe: TEXT (ASCII) version
ONLINE BUSINESS TODAY Email to: [email protected]
[email protected] [email protected] To subscribe: PDF version
[email protected] Email to: [email protected]
[email protected] SPECIAL REPORTS: Email to:
[email protected]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 21 Aug 1995 19:27:07 -0700
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Brave New World
WHOA! Let's put some sweeping exaggeration into perspective. Paul "the
soarING" Siegel said "No! The Internet (not just the Web) will be a greater
transformational force than the automobile. The automobile enables us to move
around physically. The Internet and the many other innovations of the
Learning Society will enable use to move around mentally." I REALLY disagree.
Yes, the internet is mental travel, but don't take the attitude that autos
are "only" physical. Autos are important BECAUSE they are physical. How else
would you eat that orange from Florida, while using your computer from Hong
Kong, while watching your TV from Japan, and wearing your clothes from Mexico?
If it weren't for MERE physical transportation of MERE industrial goods, the
only computer you would be using would be one brought to you by horse from the
neighboring village, but you would be so busy growing your own potatoes and
drying beef for the winter and weaving your own garments from your own sheep's
wool that you probably wouldn't have time to surf around.
In other words, Mr. SoarING Siegel says, "You're talking here about a mental
world, a world of relationships among people. Not just gadgets. Our future
mental, social and
political development will be tremendous!!!" I'm sorry if I am being cynical
or too philosophical, but let's face it: we are still animals (even if
thinking animals). I thought the point of our existence is still birth, food,
sleep, warmth, reproduction, die, repeat. The internet is just another tool
for us to communicate, plan, learn and trade - like the towne square,
marketplace, school, tribe, family: same function, different scale. Our
paradigm has not change as dramatically as stated. We are still quite
dependent on MERE physical goods above grandiose mental worlds. What is a
"mental world" if you don't have physical commodities to sustain your pesky
physicalness?
Sorry, I don't why this bugged me, but I thought I would kick in my humble
opinion.
Kim Smith
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 21 Aug 1995 19:27:40 -0700
From: Matthew James Marnell <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: bulk e-mail
} This response reminds me of the classic breaksown of any direct mail
} campaign: 40% read it, 40% glance at it, 10% throw it away, and 10% get
} a visceral reaction. It seems as though the people on this list fall
} into the last category. But isn't it the job of those of us in the
} marketing profession to checkout every possible avenue that could
} potentially benefit our clients. The reactions I've read here pertain
} to personal preferences, not how the receipients of the bulk e-mail
} will respond. I'd be interested to see if the traditional breakdown of
} readership of a newletter is the same on internet broadcast ads.
The thing that people keep pointing out though is that email is postage
due for every envelope. In my case it can cost me in a number of ways.
Daily, I recieve between 150 and 300 messages that are necessary to my
business here. The bandwidth they take up is a valid expense for me.
These other message are a major drain on my time, disk and CPU (filtering
and sorting), and bandwidth. I do not get rabid over junk mail that
comes in the post. I don't pay for that.
} I think we can all agree that the commercialization of the internet is
} just beginning, and my sole purpose for participation in this group is
} to learn the different facets of marketing in the internet. What works,
} what doesn't. Ins't that the purpose (or one of them) of this
} discussion group.
I believe so, and unsolicited mail doesn't work. Just this morning I came
in to find that I had been spammed in my sleep. Two of the mailing lists
that I'm on are gatewayed to USENET. Of course the spammer didn't care
about that. He went ahead and posted his huge description of his pyramid
scheme and I happened to find them sitting in their respective folders.
I promptly called Compuserve where this person had their account, asked
a couple questions, etc. It was another consumate spammer. One of those
people that opens a new account every couple weeks on a different service
to spam the net.
} Thru all of the reactions that I've read, not one of you mentioned the
} number of times he (promo) sends e-mail out. I recall that there was a
} MOnday, Wednesday, Friday, plus something else happening on Tuesday's
} and Thursday's. That practive will dilute the effectiveness of ANY
} direct campaign, especially e-mail(I suspect), because we don't have
} all day to spend on our computers (at least I don't). I think that he
} is turning off potential ccustomers for his clients by, in my opinion,
} abusing the privelidge (sp) of sending them e-mail.
I would think so. I try a few times to get off these things. I'm so fed
up with it that I've set up filters to set up canned messages. If it
doesn't stop, I will end up setting up my system to refuse connections
from a particular domain, and their IP addresses as well. That is the
easiest way to assert netiquette, and that is how the Internet got where
it is. If someone doesn't play nice, you lock them out. They offend
enough people, they loose service to a large enough portion of the Internet,
it no longer pays to scoff at netiquette. I usually stop refusing
connections after 3 months, and if they're still at it, the filter goes
up for good. This way they don't waste my bandwidth with their drivel.
Their mail daemon requests a connection to mine and it gets refused, simple
as that. If they persist enough to get logged, and do waste my bandwidth
with spurious connection attempts, I then go to their upstream provider.
I have no contract that says I have to waste my resources for their cruft.
There is no implicit agreement between me and anyone else. One of the
rules of netiquette is that if you don't play nice, don't expect other
computers to talk to you.
} I happen to send broadcast faxes (blush), but I do it only once or
} twice a month. Now we all know that this costs recipients money, but I
} get very few negative responses, basically because I am offering my
} potetial clients something of value, and I'm not abusing the privelidge
} (sp). When someone complains, I immediately take them off of my fax
} list. My experience with faxes mirrors that of traditional responses
} to direct mail campaigns, and I feel potentially that of bulk e-mail
} also.
Be very careful about this especially in the US. In the US it is illegal
to send faxes like this. You can get into a lot of trouble, or possibly
shut down. We had someone in our town doing this to us. At first I
thought he was sending faxes to the previous owner of the phone line,
but the second fax I got from them had our company name on it. I called
him up repeatedly. His "service" sent at least one fax a day, sometimes
5. After I found out that this was illegal, I left a message to the affect
that if it didn't stop, I'd file a legal complaint against him. I didn't
recieve a fax from him again until last week, at which time, I called
him back once more and reminded him that his actions where actionable.
We'll wait and see if he tries it again. I have around 200 pages that
came from this guys "service" (BTW, he sends faxes on the behalf of local
businesses, mostly restaurants) and beings that at least half of the pages
are covered with graphics, I know this person seriously contributed to
the loss of toner. Have you ever gotten a 20 page fax from someone and
the toner runs out about halfway through. In that particular instance, I
know this cretins mass faxing contributed to at least some loss/delay of
income.
} In responding to this thread, someone wrote that they were able to
} leave "crumb trails" that led to their web page. He/she (sorry, I
} didn't jot down your name) went on to describe the amount of hits
} he/she received because of these "crumb trails", and the numbers seemed
} impressive. I personally would like to know specifically what he/she
} did to get that response, so that I might learn who that practice could
} benefit my clients.
I have one client, who I featured in my .sig for a week. In that week, the
hit count on their site doubled. I have another client who was acitve
in several USENET groups already. I simply coached him on what he should
put in his .sig. His count tripled, and most of the groups that he read
weren't remotely related to what he does. Another client that has gone
with a rather simple site for the time being (www.dorothylane.com) has
increased their traffic by 5 times. They're a upscale grocery and have
put their URL on their bags, in their leaflets, on their business cards,
on just about anything that they attach their phone number to. After all
this, they've decided that their online venture has been well worth it, and
they've decided to ramp up their service ( and to give me more control
over it as the ideas that I gave them (killer brownie drawing) etc, panned
out the best for them.
These are good ways to leave trails of crumbs. Also, use a fine service
like infoseek and find out if there is someone out there putting simple
hotlist like pages together that are related to what your client does.
In one instance, I spent about an hour on the phone with 3 people on the
'Net who had rather nice link lists. To one I promised they'd get a sample
of the product I wanted to have them make a link to, the second, we talked
HTML for a while. the third wouldn't hear of it, and I can't blame them
at all for it. Using http_referer, I ascertained that these couple links
where well worth the time getting on board, and besides, my client was more
than happy to pay me for the time and send each of these people more than
I'd said I'd get for them. I don't view it as a bribe at all. These
people saw that everything I'd said about the product was true and my
client deserved a link. 2 months later I did another infoseek search and
three more pages had sprung up with similar themes and they already had
links to my client. I mentioned this to my client and they were pleased
as punch. They also sent out product to these people just on principle.
Lots of ways to leave crumbs, and not a single one of my clients has
gotten flamed for breach of netiquette that I know of, because I spend
enough time on education.
Matt
- --
Matt Marnell Portia Communication & Internet Services
CEO/CIO Inet Consulting, Training, Info Services
[email protected] Web Authoring and Unix Consulting and Admin
http://www.portia.com v: (513)435-6534 f: (513)435-6643
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 21 Aug 1995 19:29:19 -0700
From: "Pitcher, Sharon" <[email protected]>
Subject: Advice on Marketing on the Internet Title
I have been approached to publish a title
concerning internet marketing - as opposed to the
usual run of techie titles in this area - this
proposal is much more a structured and practical
guide. It will aim at marketing people who already
have an understanding of the Net and now want to
use this for marketing puposes.
Target audience is:
1) marketing professionals and execs who are not
currently using the net but understand it as a
medium
2) the above but who are already using it and are
looking for a structured marketing approach
3) student on CIM courses.
After reading the book, the reader will know how
to use the net to gather information, conduct
market researcg and understand how tyo use the net
to publish their organisation's own materials.
There will be a strong emphasis on "learning by
doing" - there will be a web site here where
readers can inter-act with the authors of the
book.
I would appreciate comments from the rest of the
group on the worth of such a title and whether
they feel there is a market for this type of book.
Also whether anyone would be prepared to review
this title prior to publication. We are a
professional and tertiary publisher who originates
texts out of all of world-wide offices - UK, US,
Australia and Asian.
Thanks
Sharon Pitcher - Special Sales & Projects
Butterworth-Heinemann, Linacre House, Jordan Hill,
OXFORD, OX2 8DP, UK
[email protected]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 21 Aug 1995 19:31:57 -0700
From: [email protected] (Brandi Jasmine)
Subject: Re: Bulk e-mail discussion
>Date: 20 Aug 1995 10:22:25 -0700
>From: [email protected] (Daniel P Dern)
>Subject: Re: Bulk e-mail discussion
I'm so glad you wrote. How do you feel about receiving unsolicited press
releases rather than solicitations? As a freelance writer, I welcome them
(eagerly), but I wonder how others feel. One of my contracts wishes me to
begin sending press releases by e-mail in addition to fax, but knowing how
people feel about unsolicited e-mail, I'm cautious (These releases mainly
involve commercial sites for select corporate clients, so far two motion
picture sites, one for the television show ReBoot, one for a city-wide pizza
delivery site).
>Placing a commecial message in a newsroup does NOT implicitly say
>"Sure, go ahead and add me to a mailing list I don't know about."
>
>It is wrong behavior to autosubscribe someone, period.
>
>Mailing them unsolicited it bad enough. Saying "Surprise, you're
>on a list" is an order of magnitude worse.
I have to agree, but how do you approach someone to ask? In the case of a
press release, one assumes that a journalist or publication prints the fax
and address of the editorial department because they welcome unsolicted
submissions (they usually say so if they don't). Is an e-mail address any
different?
I had considered sending a brief message to each journalist or editor,
asking them if they welcome unsolicited press releases. Would this be
acceptable? I welcome all responses.
Brandi
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 22 Aug 1995 07:44:01 -0700
From: Skip Montanaro <[email protected]>
Subject: How about a bulk-email FAQ?
Is there a bulk-email FAQ handy somewhere on the net? If not, can we write
one? I'd be happy to help organize such an effort and host it on our Web
server. If there is no FAQ about direct mail/bulk mail/unsolicited
mail/*#!%%! mail, there ought to be. That way when someone raises that
issue, Glenn can bludgeon them with a big fat FAQ.
Alternatively, he could send the message out to the list with a "secret
handshake" added to the Subject: field so all inet-marketing readers would
know to respond privately to the poster with a copy of the FAQ. Perhaps
there is a smiley that could serve as the secret handshake. Is there a
smiley equivalent of "Oh no! Mr. Bill!"? ;-)
- --
Skip Montanaro [email protected] (518)372-5583
Musi-Cal on the Web: http://www.calendar.com/concerts/
Musi-Cal via email: [email protected] (msg body of "help" for full info)
Internet Conference Calendar: http://www.calendar.com/conferences/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 22 Aug 1995 07:48:39 -0700
From: [email protected] (Bob Gaskins)
Subject: Re: Unsolicited email
I thought I'd be able to remain mute on further discussion of this topic
until I read what our fearless listowner :) wrote Sunday:
>
> * Unsolicited email and other spams should be made illegal in as many
> countries as possible, just as unsolicited faxes are illegal in the U.S.
>
>
I'm shocked!
The last thing any of us needs is another government intrusion into our
lives. In the US, we've only this month managed to put Senator Exon in his
place -- perhaps (it's not certain whether he'll remain there). Why would
anyone want to reopen an avenue for government to legislate (read:
"censor") the content of what has (so far) remained a free and open forum?
I'll be one of the first to admit that unsolicited email is annoying and an
infringement of my right to allocate my resources (money and time for
starters) as I see fit. But I'd much prefer to deal with the violators of
that right in a free and open forum.
The Internet is not just a network. It's a culture. And that culture has
developed (and continues to develop) its own definitions of appropriate
behavior. Those who operate within those definitions are accepted. Those
who don't are ostracized.
Your suggestion, Glen, would open the door to exactly what Senator Exon and
his uninformed cronies would have: more power to force their values upon
the rest of us. It wouldn't matter whether you believed those values are
good or bad -- they'd always be "good" because those with the power would
be defining the nature of the values.
I will grant you that legislating against unsolicited email is an
attractive idea. But our US government has demonstrated time and again that
it isn't satisfied to stop legislating until it has legislated all the
power it can grab. And it has proven over and over that it cannot (will
not?) limit itself. Today it may be email. Tomorrow it may be your
religion. Or what books you're permitted to read. Or how many children
you're allowed to have. Or which side of the street you may live on. Or
your haircut. Or what products you're allowed to market.
Okay, I'll admit some of those examples may seem absurd. In fact,
attempting to legislate what can be said on the internet is absurd, too,
firstly because such legislation would be unenforceable. As you pointed out
"all people have to do is run the spams from countries that don't pass
these laws."
But the main point is this: As a society, the Internet has demonstrated it
is perfectly capable of forcing the opinion of the majority on any minority
that "gets out of line".
The Internet Community has been called an anarchy, but that does not mean
there are no rules. More accurately the Internet Community is an absolute
democracy, that is, a democracy ruled *directly* by its members (rather
than through a set of elected representatives). The rule of public opinion
is king on the net. And as a community, the Internet has already developed
several effective methods for dealing with the spammers. Why would we want
to invite the government (any government) to interfere?
Now that I've gotten that 2 cents off my chest I'll turn the soapbox over
to the next person.... Sorry for such a long rant.
cheers ;>!
-- Bob.
Bob Gaskins
Robert Gaskins & Associates
Advertising - Marketing - Communications
Helping small business succeed with effective information technology.
email: [email protected]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 22 Aug 1995 07:52:00 -0700
From: "Chris Harrower" <silver@postoffice.ptd.net>
Subject: Re: Internic Registrations pass to 100,00 mark
> The number of unique domains passed the 100,000 mark on or about Aug. 15th.
> Kraft registers 133 product names including Velveeta and Sanka. Procter
> & Gamble registers 52 names including Luvs and Metamucil. And it had
> to happen sometime... a Baltimore based law firm registers 24 company
> and product names on behalf of its clients.
I have to ask...why can they get that many different domains, and our
company (which is in the process of creating websites and more for several
travel, tourism, and industrial companies) can't get more than the 1 we
were granted.
Is there a "secret" to getting multiple domains? Since we are creating the
content, and hold all copyrights on the material presented, we should be
able to hold the domains (with the company or organization permission).
Any insights more than welcome!!
()_() Chris Harrower |"So then, 5 card stud, nothing wild...
(_) silver@welcome.com | and the sky's the limit..."
- -----------------------------| -Jean Luc Picard
Via Pegasus Mail... | Action Video Productions
- -----------------------------| http://www.welcome.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 22 Aug 1995 07:57:04 -0700
From: "Peter H. Lemieux" <[email protected]>
Subject: Corporate resistance to the Internet
While most of the readers of this list are concerned with marketing over
the Internet, we're engaged in marketing the Internet itself. I'm posting
a problem that I have seen over the past few months to see if others of
you, with more experience in corporate America than I, have also
encountered.
Our business is providing turnkey solution packages to organizations
wishing to connect to the Net. Our typical package includes a connection
with an access provider, a router/server that connects between the
provider and client's local area network, a suite of client software for
the LAN workstations, a program of user training, and a service and
support contract. Our target market is organizations with NetWare/
Netbios/Appletalk LANs and little experience with the Internet, its
technologies, etc.
We have been marketing primarily to network admins and other IS types using
direct mail. We've been pretty successful in getting in the door to see
these people and submitting a proposal, but less successful in closing a
sale. While we thought that cost was a primary deterrent, we now believe
a deeper, and more pernicious problem faces us: the fear among senior
management about the "threats" posed by an Internet connection.
Certainly the past few months have not treated the Internet kindly. Most
media attention has centered around "cyberporn" and security threats.
Only today I pulled Information Week out of my mailbox to see a cover
story entitled "Internet Theft: Online bandits will steal $10 billion
worth of corporate information this year". Sigh. (The actual story goes
on to say that most thefts are by people inside, and the Internet is used
to e-mail the stolen info to black marketeers. Not the conclusion you'd
reach from the cover. Not to mention that you could use AOL to do the
shipping.)
Beyond the security issues are the concerns about employee time-wasting,
or worse. (Also, sad to say, the subject of a recent Info Week piece.)
Unfortunately senior management in the US (and elsewhere?) seems to view
its workforce as a bunch of disgrunted, bored slackers who will exploit
access to the Internet to download dirty pictures, play online games, or
sell company secrets to the highest bidder. So even when we get network
admins to agree we are providing them a valuable service, they can't sell
the project to the higher-ups. Of course, if these people hardly ever, or
never, use computer technology themselves, the problem is even more
difficult.
As a former political scientist, I'm not too surprised by this reaction.
Technologies like the Internet do empower their users in ways that should
strike fear in the hearts of corporate authoritarians. Studies of e-mail
patterns show how they work to undermine hierarchical communication
structures in organizations. Desktop access to the Net enables staffers
to engage in communication and information sharing with people around
the globe, but with little or no scrutiny from above. Etc.
The heart of the question is then, how can this negative media image be
overcome? What can we, both here at cyways and collectively in the
Internet industry, do to promote the reality of the Internet as a valuable
information tool? And, in particular, how might we devise a marketing
strategy for our business that helps build a company-wide consensus within
potential client firms that, despite the problems it might pose,
connecting to the Internet will on balance benefit their businesses?
Thanks for listening!
Peter
- -----
Peter H. Lemieux, President
cyways, inc. Voice: (800) 5-cyways
203 Arlington Street Foreign: +1 (617) 924-7991
Watertown, Massachusetts 02172-2036 USA Fax: +1 (617) 926-8440
Your source for total Internet solutions (tm) Home: http://www.cyways.com
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