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Internet Marketing Digest 0419
Internet Marketing discussion mailing list
Digest #0419
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This list is moderated by Glenn Fleishman <[email protected]>
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
In this digest:
Re: Brave New World ([email protected] (Suzanne Lainson))
Re: Brave New World - Slightly related to: New Thread ([email protected]
(Cliff Allen))
Re: Commercial service numbers (Nick Gassman <[email protected]>)
Re: Bulk e-mail discussion (marym@Finesse.COM (Mary Morris))
Re: SSL challenge -- broken ! (fwd ([email protected] (Stefaan Van Ryssen))
Re: Bulk e-mail discussion (Matthew James Marnell <[email protected]>)
Re: Commercial service numbers ([email protected] (James Cameron))
Re: Internet Marketing Digest #0417 ([email protected] (Cliff
Kurtzman))
Re: Critique requested, please ([email protected] (Jim Sterne))
Re: SSL challenge -- broken ! (fwd ([email protected] (James Cameron))
Re: Brave New World ([email protected] (Jim Sterne))
Re: SSL challenge -- broken ! (fwd ([email protected] (Albert Lunde))
Re: Bulk e-mail discussion ([email protected] (Paul Eidsvik))
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 19 Aug 1995 10:05:18 -0700
From: [email protected] (Suzanne Lainson)
Subject: Re: Brave New World
There may be new ways to market and distribute products, but will overall
consumption rise--and if so, of what products by which people?
A decade ago the buzz was the European Common Market.
Then it was Eastern Europe.
Then it was China.
None of them has generated the unlimited sales that the hype suggested.
Sure there are people there--but are they buying--and are they buying from us?
And we are seeing the evolution of sales in this country. Retailing has
transformed considerably in the last 20 years. Yuppies who once believed
consumption meant career success now worry more about hanging onto their
jobs and saving for retirement.
Sometimes discussions about internet marketing become so detached from the
greater complexities of marketing in general.
Sure the internet may enable people to buy t-shirts from their living
rooms, but at some point they realize they have enough t-shirts and it
doesn't matter how fast they can get them or even what they look like. They
simply don't need any more.
I tend to view anything that promises to revolutionize marketing with a
jaundiced eye.
Suzanne
Suzanne Lainson SportsTrust Integrated Marketing
[email protected] P.O. Box 2071 Sports and Event Marketing
303 473-9884 Boulder, CO 80306 Online Marketing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 19 Aug 1995 10:06:47 -0700
From: [email protected] (Cliff Allen)
Subject: Re: Brave New World - Slightly related to: New Thread
"Internet Marketing discussion list" <[email protected]> writes:
> From: marym@Finesse.COM (Mary Morris)
> I don't care who you are or what products you may market today.
> 5-10-15 years from now, the Web/Internet/Next Gen name will be
> integrated with so many parts of our current infrastructure, that
> we won't be able to draw a dividing line and say this was sold
> on the web, this wasn't.
Many of the computer technologies we take for granted today were initially
thought of as markets by themselves. The "computer graphics industry" was
like that in the late 1970s. Plotters and graphic display terminals had
magazines and newsletters following that industry. Today, every computer
monitor displays graphics and PostScript printers are everywhere.
As the Web becomes used by a larger percentage of businesses, it will be as
commonplace as a telephone and Yellow Pages -- but a lot more useful.
Cliff
__________________________________________________________________________
Cliff Allen [email protected] Interactive Marketing,
Allen Marketing Group 919-859-5619 phone Advertising, and
Raleigh, NC 919-851-2969 fax Public Relations Services
http://www.allen.com/allen
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 19 Aug 1995 10:19:11 -0700
From: Nick Gassman <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Commercial service numbers
I'm a bit late catching up with this one.
> From: Frank Catalano <[email protected]>
>
> According to a 7/13/95 news release from the Information and Interactive
> Services Report, there were 8,556,800 subscribers to commercial online
> services at the end of June 1995.
Is this a report that is available over the Net?
> What I personally find interesting is after the big three, no service has
> even one-tenth Prodigy's subscriber base.
It seems that this report only looked at US services. Nifty-Serve and PC-VAN
in Japan both have over one million subscribers. What other services are
there around the world?
When considering total markets I caution against the concept that the US is
the only place where it's at.
- --
Nick Gassman - known as [email protected]
Interactive Multimedia across The Internet is here
http://www.route-one.co.uk/route-one/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 19 Aug 1995 10:19:49 -0700
From: marym@Finesse.COM (Mary Morris)
Subject: Re: Bulk e-mail discussion
> My answer to that is ... If someone posts a commercial advertisement to
> a newsgroup, then I feel that they are opening a business relationship with
> the readers of that newsgroup. So, if I have a business related bulk e-mail
> list, then I should have the right to send them a note, in reply to their ad,
^^^
The key operative word here is "a" note. Not a subscription. If these
people are interested, they can subscribe. I can't in all good faith
call these 131,000 people "interested" when they have not chosen
to subscribe. This devalues the quality of the list, and makes a bulk-email
provider like Inside Connections more appropriate than Promo Enterprises.
All this tells me is that there are 131,000 people that either
- -don't have enough motivation to unsubscribe (which says what about
their motivation to follow up on my products?),
- - don't understand email well enough to get off (how many people see any
unmoderated list that doesn't have an unsubscribe go to the list about once
a week?)
- - don't touch their email often enough to know what is being put there
- - or are really interested
I would be curious about the dropout rate (ie add 100 people, do 50%
drop out, 25%, 80%) too.
FYI Inside Connections posted an announcement to new-list and offered
people the ability to subscribe. I can't say that Inside Connections
has had a better response rate, so this might not be the only problem.
I do agree that if someone posts a commercial advertisment to a netnews
group, that they should expect more email than the average joe posting
opinions and thoughts, but that still should only justify a single
email note to start a relationship, not a series of them.
I ended up on an email newsletter called Online Business Today OBT
and I don't know how I ended up on it the first time. I sent email
to get off and it didn't happen. I got another newsletter and I
attempted to call them. The number in the NIC was a non-functioning
number, so I called their service provider who had the same phone
number. It appeared that I had managed to get off their list after
that complaint for a full 2 weeks. Evidently a posting that
I made to some email alias (I don't touch newsgroups), got me
back on the list. I hit the roof that time. The least that they
could have done was check their previous unsubscribe requests.
This is just one example of the problems involved with adding people
instead of offering them the opportunity to subscribe. There are
many more. People should have to act if interested, not if they
are not interested. Besides in some cases where it costs money
to send Internet emails (such as one of the big 3), it cost that
person to receive your email and again to send an email to unsubscribe.
Billing them twice is not right regardless if it is a nickel or
dime situation.
Mary
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 19 Aug 1995 11:12:16 -0700
From: [email protected] (Stefaan Van Ryssen)
Subject: Re: SSL challenge -- broken ! (fwd)
>At 2:32 PM 8/17/95, Eric S. Theise wrote:
>>but he concludes:
>>
>>...Don't trust your credit
>>> > card number to this [SSL] protocol.
I can agree with the first paragraph of Glenn's response to this mail
("don't write it down etc...")
The fear of cc# stealing or 'Netrobbery' is completely irrational.
I don't see why Glenn insists on having a 48 digit encryption key system to
pay on the Net.
Either we code/uncode every single private mail, or we tackle the hype
around Netrobberies.
I think the first one has its drawbacks (making mail more cumbersome) and
the second one is very difficult because people behave completely irrational
as soon as the issue turns up.
Remember the rough and dirty survey we did: not a single victim to
Netrobbery turned up!!!
Stefaan Van Ryssen
professor of marketing and market researcher: [email protected]
the Cassandra project: [email protected]
Jan Delvinlaan 114 - 9000 Gent - Belgium. +32 9 228 19 89 (v+f)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 19 Aug 1995 11:58:34 -0700
From: Matthew James Marnell <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Bulk e-mail discussion
} From: marym@Finesse.COM (Mary Morris)
}
} I do agree that if someone posts a commercial advertisment to a netnews
} group, that they should expect more email than the average joe posting
} opinions and thoughts, but that still should only justify a single
} email note to start a relationship, not a series of them.
FWIW I've had the same problem with OBT, and I'm just about to go so far
as refusal of connections from them. Or a return mailbomb each time I
get a note from them.
Back to automatically subscribing people who write to news groups.
This can be quite a hairy thing to do.
Theoretical situation, but one that has happened many a time to many
a person I know.
Let's say I set up an infobot. My infobot does a number of things. It
posts to appropriate newsgroups logging mail replies from each group and
responding with a semi-canned reply. It also answers other mail such as
requests for information. To all mail sent to it without a keyword that
it looks for, it responds with a truly canned reply.
Subscribing an infobot can cause many a headache, for the administrators
and the other users of services that an infobot may get subscribed to.
infobots getting subscribed to full fledged mailing lists can cause no
end of havoc. They have been known to cause loops that bring the mail
hosts to their knees, or crashing them and flooding their net.connections,
and also causing everyone else on the list to scream bloody murder.
I'm sure Promo has more than one infobot on their list of "subscribers",
what the infobot does with messages recieved is up to what the person
expects who wrote it expects to recieve and do with that bot. I've known
bots to be so complex that they'd catch just about anything.
As far as the autosubscriptions. OBT subscribed me to their list. They
subscribed an email address here that I use only for support from outside
agencies whose products Portia Comm uses. I hadn't used that account for
some time and only noticed that I was subscribed when /var/mail/spool got
so big that mail flow stopped (I get my mail forwarded to the Laptop I use
and never imagined ever coming close to the full 800 megs of disk before
needing to upgrade the laptop altogether.)
There is also the case of Pacific Internet which I understand sells
Internet products. I happened to write to Brad over there once to ask
about the availability of HoTMetaL for the platform we use here. Several
months later I come to find that I've been subscribed to their product
announcement list and that I should already have been aware of that, but
if I wasn't it was simple to unsubscribe. To this moment I don't know
if the unsub has taken or not.
As to promo. I wonder if the enduser has more disdain for the company
(promo) or the businesses that use it. For each message I get here that
is a blatant advert, whether it be something I might like or not, I put
a note on an internal web page. Nobody within our company is ever to do
business with that company and if asked on the phone is to tell our
client not to use that product or service either.
I know of other people that do this as well, just not to what extent.
Matt
- --
Matt Marnell Portia Communication & Internet Services
CEO/CIO Inet Consulting, Training, Info Services
[email protected] Web Authoring and Unix Consulting and Admin
http://www.portia.com v: (513)435-6534 f: (513)435-6643
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 19 Aug 1995 11:59:05 -0700
From: [email protected] (James Cameron)
Subject: Re: Commercial service numbers
On Sat, 19 Aug 1995, "Internet Marketing discussion list"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>From: Nick Gassman <[email protected]>
>> According to a 7/13/95 news release from the Information and Interactive
>> Services Report, there were 8,556,800 subscribers to commercial online
>> services at the end of June 1995.
>
>Is this a report that is available over the Net?
Forrester Research has published its own set of numbers, along
with projected growth, and they are smaller. I'm generally wary
of numbers such as this, because the actual figures are only available
from the commercial services themselves.
>> What I personally find interesting is after the big three, no service has
>> even one-tenth Prodigy's subscriber base.
This is a very topsy turvy area. Delphi, one of the gnats here, will be
merged into MCI's on-line system - MCI brings the infrastructure and Delphi
the content.
AT&T is finally moving aggressively into this arena, with its own on-line
service and world-wide Internet services. AT&T Interchange is a bit of a
sleeper today, but don't expect that situation to continue.
MCI and AOL have tremendous resources compared to AOL and Compuserve. While
that doesn't guarantee success, it does suggest that many of the *brand*
name services around today, may not be around in 5 - 10 years.
>It seems that this report only looked at US services. Nifty-Serve and PC-VAN
>in Japan both have over one million subscribers. What other services are
>there around the world?
>When considering total markets I caution against the concept that the US is
>the only place where it's at.
Europe has at least several of its own services, but I don't have their
names readily available.
Historically ( 2 years ago is ancient history ), far and away the major
action has been in North America, followed by Western Europe.
As some recent domain name counts posted to this list vividly illustrated
however, the "Internetization" of many parts of the world is now beginning,
with marked host and domain count growth in a number of areas.
American commercial services recognize the existence of these other markets as
well, and are moving aggressively into them, largely as a result of
competitive forces here in the US.
What is really shaping up here is a ferocious battle of commercial
services - including non-American ones - for markets world-wide. While
we in the the US are only used to solicitations from American companies,
in time some of these solicitations will becoming from foreign ones
as well, no doubt.
Regards,
J. Cameron
______________________________
James Cameron Internet Training & Seminars
Internos, Inc On-line Business Strategies
Seattle, WA
ph 206 789 4831 "The Internet and the Practice of Law"
[email protected] http://www.halcyon.com/jcam/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 19 Aug 1995 12:00:27 -0700
From: [email protected] (Cliff Kurtzman)
Subject: Re: Internet Marketing Digest #0417
[email protected] (Bret Schuhmacher) wrote:
>Why do we seem to be
>losing contracts to companies who create pages with lime-green
>backgrounds and 120K images on their Home Page, no interactivity, and
>an address like the one above?
You are losing customers because your "competitors" are less expensive and
you are not successfully educating your potential customers as to value of
your service as compared to what your less capable competitors are
offerring.
I think that the biggest recommendation I would make is that you need to
start building a dialog with your potential customer, well before you ever
start quoting rates. You also need to start figuring out ways to decide
which potential customers are worth spending time educating, and which ones
don't have any funds and are probably not worth the time. It would be
wonderful if we could all spend our time educating the masses about the net
for free, but the reality is that you won't stay in business long if you do
so -- so you need to qualify your prospects carefully.
Unfortunately the press has sold many people on the notion that a free
lunch is awaiting in cyberspace, and all you have to do is put up a web
page. So you'll get a lot of inquiries from people without resources
looking for a free lunch. You shouldn't be too upset if these folks end up
with your competitor. In fact, you shouldn't really think of them as your
competition, rather as another Internet company filling a different market
niche than you are.
- --Cliff
_______________________________________________________________________
Clifford R. Kurtzman, Ph.D.
The Tenagra Corporation
"Helping businesses and organizations establish their Net.Presence
using Net.Acceptable techniques"
http://arganet.tenagra.com/
713/335-1072
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 19 Aug 1995 18:39:42 -0700
From: [email protected] (Jim Sterne)
Subject: Re: Critique requested, please
At 12:18 PM 8/18/95 [email protected] (Bret Schuhmacher):
>because they don't run the server
>(www.xyz.com). (apologies to anyone named Tom, Dick, or Harry :-))
Bret - you might want to give a tip of the hat to:
Clam Associates. They happen to live at www.xyz.com ;-)
>Why do we seem to be
>losing contracts to companies who create pages with lime-green
>backgrounds and 120K images on their Home Page, no interactivity, and
>an address like the one above?
I don't know you're background, Bret, but if your trying to
compete on technology, you're not speaking to the business
person you want to turn into a customer.
As Daryl Ochs <[email protected]> said:
>come to the discussion from a more traditional business orientation.
Bret asks:
>how does one convince a potential customer that a
>professional site is *well worth* the money?
Here we have to move away from what you are doing for your
customers and into how are you promoting yourself?
What is the image you are projecting? How professional
are the materials your prospects receive when they ask
for more information? Are your business cards heavy-stock,
four color, professionally designed, or Copy-Shop specials?
Finally, everybody is looking for proof. Trot out your
customers and their testimonials and you'll win more
bids.
---------------------------------------------------------
Jim Sterne Target Marketing
[email protected] (805) 965-3184
=========================================================
http://www.targeting.com
=========================================================
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 19 Aug 1995 18:41:30 -0700
From: [email protected] (James Cameron)
Subject: Re: SSL challenge -- broken ! (fwd)
On Sat, 19 Aug 1995, "Internet Marketing discussion list"
Stefaan Van Ryssen wrote:
>The fear of cc# stealing or 'Netrobbery' is completely irrational.
>I don't see why Glenn insists on having a 48 digit encryption key system to
>pay on the Net.
>Either we code/uncode every single private mail, or we tackle the hype
>around Netrobberies.
>I think the first one has its drawbacks (making mail more cumbersome) and
>the second one is very difficult because people behave completely irrational
>as soon as the issue turns up.
In fact, I think people behave quiet reasonably. Many businesses simply
will not place confidential information on the Internet without a
reasonable expectation of protection. I can't imagine Turner Broadcasting
using unprotected email over the Internet to strategize with Microsoft on
buying CBS - Westinghouse may be listening.
Whether or not TBS would use email - protected or unprotected - for
something like this is not the point. The point is the Internet could
never be used for an immense amount of every-day business communication
if it did not offer security. People simply wouldn't take the chance.
In anycase, these discussions are all moot to the extent that email
and other applications will have dual key encryption built in, and
people will use it.
As far as credit card numbers go, Mastercard has stated that it
will not accept or eventually accept the use of its cards for on-line
transactions unless its security standard is used. I'm confident
that other major card companies will take the same position.
>Remember the rough and dirty survey we did: not a single victim to
>Netrobbery turned up!!!
Maybe it was too "rough and ready." The newspapers may have been
a better source of data.
Regards,
J. Cameron
______________________________
James Cameron Internet Training & Seminars
Internos, Inc On-line Business Strategies
Seattle, WA
ph 206 789 4831 "The Internet and the Practice of Law"
[email protected] http://www.halcyon.com/jcam/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 19 Aug 1995 18:42:06 -0700
From: [email protected] (Jim Sterne)
Subject: Re: Brave New World
At 9:30 AM 8/19/95, [email protected] (Suzanne Lainson):
>There may be new ways to market and distribute products, but will overall
>consumption rise--and if so, of what products by which people?
[snip]
>None of them has generated the unlimited sales that the hype suggested.
[snip]
>I tend to view anything that promises to revolutionize marketing with a
>jaundiced eye.
I'm grateful to Mary for doing the future-look thing and a little
leery of Joe for sticking to his new-social-order and of Suzanne
for painting the grim picture. The fact is: you're all right.
Commerce on the Web will change how we communicate, but not
as much as the telephone. Until, that is, they come up with
a full color terminal/keyboard/modem that's as inexpensive
as a phone.
The services Mary describes will be available in the time-frame
she outlines because there will be economic benefit to the
people offering the services. A few cents per printed map
(maybe subsidized by the gas station) will make the model fly.
Will these trendy tools be used by all? No.
The Web is more like the microwave than the automobile.
The car changed the face of the planet: asphalt rivers
and suburbs and mega-malls. The microwave is simply an
adjunct to the many ways we prepare our food. It did not
supplant the oven or the stove. It did not change what
we eat or when we eat.
The Web is *in addition to* the other ways and means
of conducting business. For some products- software,
music, information- it will make a big difference.
For others: shoes, perfume, fruits & vegetables it
will have some impact, but only slight.
---------------------------------------------------------
Jim Sterne Target Marketing
[email protected] (805) 965-3184
=========================================================
http://www.targeting.com
=========================================================
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 19 Aug 1995 18:42:35 -0700
From: [email protected] (Albert Lunde)
Subject: Re: SSL challenge -- broken ! (fwd)
> The fear of cc# stealing or 'Netrobbery' is completely irrational.
>
> I don't see why Glenn insists on having a 48 digit encryption key system to
> pay on the Net.
> Either we code/uncode every single private mail, or we tackle the hype
> around Netrobberies.
> I think the first one has its drawbacks (making mail more cumbersome) and
> the second one is very difficult because people behave completely irrational
> as soon as the issue turns up.
>
> Remember the rough and dirty survey we did: not a single victim to
> Netrobbery turned up!!!
And I'll point out, as I've said before, that many instances of password
sniffing _have_ occurred, and the same technology _is_ involved.
Of two Chicago-area universities where I have information, both
have had more than one subnet compromised by network sniffing
(via software on a cracked machine, not physical intrusion.)
There have been other instances at commercially operated internet
providers, some well-publicized.
The way to do network security is to make a realistic assessment of
what threats are possible, and take what seem like cost-effective
measures to block those threats. I would neither recommend waiting
till a security hole is exploited before blocking it, nor total
paranoia about the more theoretical risks.
Breaking the SSL chalange is a proof-of-principle to show that 40bit
keys (as allowed for export under ITAR), are relatively weak (though
a lot better than ROT13 ;). We knew that, but this makes it more
concrete.
It seems to me a good idea to think about threats on a several
year span, because deployment of more secure protocols or
hardware can take time and money. (Thus, when we wired our dorms
we put in more expensive 10-base-T hubs that prevent sniffing
within the subnet, we've been making configuration changes
to prevent IP-spoofing and we are making increased use of
DCE for network sharing of resources.)
I'd also point out that ITAR does not seem to place as strong limits
on authentication as encrpytion, so that a payment protocol based
on authetication by digital signatures (rather than sending encrpyted
credit-card numbers) might be easier to export than the stronger
versions of SSL. (I'm speaking a bit hypothetically here, though
I wouldn't be surpised if the was a way to do this with the various
options in SHTTP, given a viable key certificate chain.)
- --
Albert Lunde [email protected]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 19 Aug 1995 19:07:34 -0700
From: [email protected] (Paul Eidsvik)
Subject: Re: Bulk e-mail discussion
This is interesting. Promo says that they consider anyone who is
advertising on the net to be "fair game" for email promos. There is justice
to this. It's amazing to me, however, how some internet "purists" are
howling with anguish -- and exclaiming to the world that it is a violation
of some thing called netiquette.
Email is almost certain to be a part of the internet commerce of the future.
It is in fact already a part of that commerce. It possibly counts for more
actual business than all the web sites put together. We have been using it
for some time, rather successfully.
I agree that people who don't wish to be part of the commercial side of the
internet should basically be left alone to do whatever, but those of us who
do chose to be a part of the business world shouldn't think that it can or
should be a one way street. If I put my name out there for the world to see
as a provider of products or services, I should expect that others will
approach me about products and services of their own that I might find useful.
Let's be blunt about something else. Much of what is written in usenet
newsgroups (much of what is on the internet in general) is pure drivel by
any standard I know of. This "netiquette" that people claim to be so fond
of is not exactly put in place by "rocket scientists" or people interested
in pure academic discussion. Those who howl the most about it generally
have their own axe to grind.
Let's at least try to live in the real world here.
Paul Eidsvik [email protected]
>Ouch! So, If I advertise on my web site, or post an advert to a commercial
>group, I get put on your remailer _without being asked?_ That is a severe,
>blatant breach of netiquette, costs me money, takes my time and effort to
>get me removed, and is generally a pain in the ***.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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