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Internet Marketing Digest 0415
Internet Marketing discussion mailing list
Digest #0415
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This list is moderated by Glenn Fleishman <[email protected]>
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In this digest:
@NY -- The New York Internet Newsletter (tw1@pipeline.com (Tom Watson))
Re: Internet Marketing Digest #0413 and Comparison shopping with the Web
([email protected] (Cliff Kurtzman))
New Thread ([email protected])
Usage Gray Areas ([email protected] (Steve O'Keefe))
Brave New World - Slightly related to: New Thread (marym@Finesse.COM (Mary
Morris))
Re: Bookmarks now at FTP ([email protected] (John Hart))
Re: Usage Gray Areas (marym@Finesse.COM (Mary Morris))
Your moderator starts a cafe (Glenn Fleishman <[email protected]>)
SSL challenge -- broken ! (fwd ("Eric S. Theise" <[email protected]>)
Re: SSL challenge -- broken ! (fwd (Glenn Fleishman <[email protected]>)
Re: SSL challenge -- broken ! (fwd
Re: SSL challenge -- broken ! (fwd
Re: Usage Gray Areas ([email protected] (Daniel P Dern))
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Date: 17 Aug 1995 08:03:17 -0700
From: tw1@pipeline.com (Tom Watson)
Subject: @NY -- The New York Internet Newsletter
Hello.
We're starting @NY -- The New York Internet Newsletter with the idea of
covering the hottest place in the digital revolution. We're two veteran
newspaper reporters who have spent years chronicling New york and we're
fascinated with the growing interactive industry of the Big Apple.
If you have any ideas or suggestions about how we should make this the best
e-mail newsletter possible, we'd sure like to know. If you know of anyone
who might want to sponsor our homepage, please send e-mail. If you want
coverage for your company, send it to us. If you know anyone who may want
to take advertising and take advantage of our top-notch copy and powerhouse
mailing list, let us know.
If you want to subscribe, drop us a line.
We anticipate an issue every other week, beginning the first week in
September.
Send subscriptions etc. to: tw1@pipeline.com
Thanks.
Jason Chervokas
Tom Watson
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Date: 17 Aug 1995 08:04:03 -0700
From: [email protected] (Cliff Kurtzman)
Subject: Re: Internet Marketing Digest #0413 and Comparison shopping with
the Web
lisainc@intersource.com (Barry Martin) wrote:
>>From: [email protected] (Cliff Kurtzman)
>>
>>>On 9 Aug 1995 Kim J. Smith wrote:
>>>There are more factors than just price and IMHO most companies do not want
>>>to be judged soley on price.
>
>Actually Kim did not write this. I did in my reply to her.
and then H. Barton ([email protected]) wrote:
>
>In "Re: Internet Marketing Digest #0410", [email protected] (Cliff
>Kurtzman) seemed to be trying to make the point that the Web is now or will
>soon succeed in promoting competition (comparison shopping), especially on
>price, and that this will spell the grand success of Web shopping. He then
>asks, "So, list.people, convince me why a net.company can't be successful by
>competing on price alone. Is there a hole in my reasoning I don't see?"
and then [email protected] wrote:
>This is a strange thread so far.
Finally a statement I can thoroughly agree with. The fact is that, in
addition to Kim not writing the statement attributed to her, I also did not
write the statement attributed to me that attributed the statement to Kim.
I had absolutely nothing to do with that post. It is true that my name
appeared on the original post (at least the version of it sent out to the
people not on the digest version), but Glenn tells me that it was put there
in error. To make this absolutely clear: I disavow any authorship of that
post or the comments therein.
But as long as I'm on the subject... My personal opinion is that I'm more
than willing to purchase from someone on the web that posts information
that I find useful, even if they don't have the lowest price. Hosting and
maintaining quality information costs someone money, and if its a resource
I really appreciate and use I am willing to pay a reasonable premium to
those that make it available to me. I suspect others, particularly long
time netizens, share my point of view. Whether the teaming millions of
newbies pouring onto the net will feel the same is an open question.
And who won't I buy from? Over the past week I've received about two dozen
"ads" from people with Internet services and web sites that decided the
best way to let me know about their service was to send me a direct email
advertisement for their product or service. Not only will I not ever
patronize these businesses, I will never recommend them to any of my
numerous clients, and if any of my clients ask me about these businesses, I
will tell them not to ever patronize them. If anyone on this list is even
remotely thinking of taking this approach to publicize their web site or
business, please think twice about it. I can tell you with absolute
certainty that there are many, many people like me out there that you will
lose as a customer. FOREVER.
- --Cliff Kurtzman
The Tenagra Corporation
http://arganet.tenagra.com/
713/335-1072
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Date: 17 Aug 1995 08:06:21 -0700
From: [email protected]
Subject: New Thread
Hello all.
I've been following the group discussion closely for about a year and feel it
may be time to stretch our legs and move on to consider a different angle.
Most of the discussion, debate and idea exchange centered on the technical,
legal and design issues of web marketing. However, being the Director of
Electronic Marketing for a large packaged goods manufacturer, I have to
assume that these details will be worked out by the specialists in the
creative and legal professions. Obviously, I need a lot of input into their
process, but ultimately my paycheck is dependant upon effectively managing
the whole process of moving our product from the store to the home using
digital vehicles.
Sure, I believe that the web represents a tremendous opportunity for some
categories. Downright easy opportunity for other categores. I will even go
so far to say that just about anyone thinking creatively will find some use
of it. Also, I keep reminding people inside my company that successful web
programs don't necessarily need to add sales to the bottom line.
So after that comment, my question is really to guage everyone's feelings and
impressions about the recent news concerning a large packaged goods marketer
and a large media company announcing a joint venture to develop new online
service.
On the surface this sounded like a great idea. Who knows, it may be a great
idea beneath the surface as well. I think a lot of it depends on their
ultimate goal and the price tag they are paying to reach that goal.
Before I go into too much detail with my thoughts (you'll appreciate that in
the future), I would love to hear any comments from the group about this
concept. Outside of exclusivity, what value does this bring the marketer?
What would be a reasonable investment from the marketer's side?
If their objective is to target and build relationships with a highly
specific group, then why go through the expense of a GUI online service
versus a more economical approach like a BBS, email campaign, or the recently
described Telnet idea (an idea I like more and more as I think about it). I
recognize the value of an attractive package, but unless it pays for itself
in some respect I can think of no sound business reason to do it.
I think this is an important idea to explore in more detail because as the
medium develops we will be confronted with more and more concepts that we
need to be prepared to deal with. I look forward to exchanging ideas with
everyone.
Mark Anzalone
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Date: 17 Aug 1995 08:07:22 -0700
From: [email protected] (Steve O'Keefe)
Subject: Usage Gray Areas
Since everyone likes talking about copyright so much, I have a related
question. Most book contracts I've seen allow the publisher to use
"portions" of the text for promotional purposes. I've never seen a contract
that specified how large a portion could be used. I'd be curious to hear
from both authors and publishers as to what constitutes acceptable usage.
Here's the dilemma behind the query. I had a very large web site interested
in taking an excerpt from a book. They offered no money. The publicity
department at the publishing house wanted to do the excerpt; the rights
department didn't. Further, if it was an electronic rights deal, the author
had to be consulted. If it was publicity, no author approval was required.
I've done this dance with several publishers. The delay in resolving this
issue has cost me a number of quality placements. Any light you can shed is
appreciated.
STEVE O'KEEFE <[email protected]>
Internet Publicity Services for Book Publishers & Authors
Web: http://www.bookport.com/welcome/okeefe/IPS
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Date: 17 Aug 1995 13:45:01 -0700
From: marym@Finesse.COM (Mary Morris)
Subject: Brave New World - Slightly related to: New Thread
Mark asked about our feelings about a large packaged goods
marketer and a large media company alliance. I must have been
an ostrich that day, because I don't know who these partners
are. However, even without knowing who these guys are here is
my opinion:
I was recently email interviewed from Ireland. One of the questions
really caught me off guard (especially after I read my answer back).
I was asked what percentage of sales would be done on the web in
15 years. I sat down and thought about this for a long while.
By the year 2010, I don't see the Web/Internet playing the limited
role that it currently does. I see myself having an entity (a
description of my body in some CAD form) that can be used in
whatever VRML evolves into. I call up that entity while shopping
and try clothes on it instead of myself. For the clothing shops
that custom make clothing to your measurements, like Levis does
in a few test places, my entity will contain the information
needed for the customizations. I will use shopping agents to
find product A that is within this price range, has these features,
and this support agreement. I will bank by web. I will order groceries
to be delivered by the web. While I am filling up with gas, I
will use a web map conviently located on the gas pump to find
my way around a new town. For an additional few cents, it will
print out a paper copy to take with me (assuming I don't have
a full GPS/roadmap system in my car already). If I want a book,
I will send a message to my printshop to have the latest printed
up for me and bound nicely. (I don't believe that perfect bound
books will be a home creation item in 15 years). I will pick
up that book in one hour. Photography stores will have all types
of computer interfaces for their cameras. Most video tapes will
be available for download without the must get to the store before
6 to get a decent movie syndrome.
For those that are "computer have-nots" there will be places
some libraries, some coffee shops, some general computer station
shops that offer computer access for those that can't afford it
at home.
It costs money to ship material goods. By 2010, over 50% of goods will
be shipped once, - from manufacturer to consumer. It costs money
for floor space to display goods. With VRML's successors, we will
be able to model most products. You may not be able to sample purfume,
but that will be one of a few liabilities. Most products won't
need a physical storefront.
I don't care who you are or what products you may market today.
5-10-15 years from now, the Web/Internet/Next Gen name will be
integrated with so many parts of our current infrastructure, that
we won't be able to draw a dividing line and say this was sold
on the web, this wasn't. If you have a small audience today,
that is fine. The audience won't stay small for long. Don't expect
immediate results. Expect immediate learning experiences, and
develop a continous process improvement game plan to integrate
the learning experiences. 5 years from now, the companies that
are learning today will bear little relation to what they are today.
Mary
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Date: 17 Aug 1995 14:33:49 -0700
From: [email protected] (John Hart)
Subject: Re: Bookmarks now at FTP
Thanks to the 1,010 people from INET-MARKETING who requested the Bookmarks
list. Effective immediately, Bookmarks will be available only at the ftp
site of: ftp.hart.com/e_docs. E-mail delivery will be discontinued -- it's
much more efficient to update Bookmarks daily and make it available for ftp
download in a text file than to deliver via e-mail. Check the "contents.txt"
file for dates of last update.
There are also 40+ reference files (text format) at the ftp.hart.com/e_docs
site that you may find very useful. They too are updated when new
information arrives. You're invited to download those files for your use.
Plans are to make this ftp site a primary source of
advertising/business/marketing/travel information.
Thanks to all...
John Hart, Editor
Bookmarks/TravelGram/Travel Hotlinks
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Date: 17 Aug 1995 14:34:12 -0700
From: marym@Finesse.COM (Mary Morris)
Subject: Re: Usage Gray Areas
> Most book contracts I've seen allow the publisher to use
> "portions" of the text for promotional purposes. I've never seen a contract
> that specified how large a portion could be used. I'd be curious to hear
> from both authors and publishers as to what constitutes acceptable usage.
I probably can't help you with the gray area stuff. I'm one of the
weird authors that has this spelled out in my contract. My contract
says TOC and one chapter can be used without obtaining my permission
for any electronic distribution (ie website, CD-ROM...)
My book is listed on two websites (SunSoft Press and Prentice-Hall).
SunSoft Press tends to follow this guideline for all books (they were
the ones that put it in the contract to begin with). Prentice-Hall
tends to do TOC, Preface and a chapter.
> Here's the dilemma behind the query. I had a very large web site interested
> in taking an excerpt from a book. They offered no money. The publicity
> department at the publishing house wanted to do the excerpt; the rights
> department didn't. Further, if it was an electronic rights deal, the author
> had to be consulted. If it was publicity, no author approval was required.
I'd talk to the authors early and often. For the most part, authors are
very open about putting teasers up. John December, Laura Lemay, and
myself are 3 people that I can point to at this moment that do this,
and we all make big bucks.
I'm going to say that putting a full chapter up would fit into
the same ballpark as serial rights when excerpts are printed in
magazines. This is the closest analogy that I can find in publishing
contracts.
I'd like to find a way to describe this as publicity to help you get around
the balking rights department, but I would *never* suggest that you do this
without the author's knowledge and agreement. Authors don't always qualify
as public people, but posting their work on the Internet, means that there
will be people that will find them, no matter where they hide. It is better
to have the publishing house discus this with the author upfront than to have
the author get fan mail, or otherwise, from out of the blue.
The Internet marketing paradigm places a lot of value on the person.
An author active on the Internet can significantly increase sales when
they have a good website behind them. The website alone may do some
good, but most of the best-selling SunSoft Press authors are net.personalities
in the area that they write about. I believe that this is a key
difference. My personal experience as an author is that the publishing
houses expect you to churn out a book and sit back and wait for the
royalties. I've met with resistance when I wanted to have a hand in
the publicity, despite the fact that the publishing house claims to
want active authors. (Sorry if I am preaching to the choir)
I'd also suggest that you explore with the rights department the
reasoning behind their hesitation. It may only be that they need
to be enlightened.
Mary
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Date: 17 Aug 1995 14:52:58 -0700
From: Glenn Fleishman <[email protected]>
Subject: Your moderator starts a cafe
Howdy, marketeers,
I have good news and better news.
The Internet Marketing Discussion list (namely, me) has struck a deal to
work with a new America Online area opening up called "Downtown AOL."
This area will be primarily Web-based, and will be providing a mechanism
for medium and small businesses to get Web sites under the AOL umbrella.
The service launches in about a week.
Your humble moderator will be the "proprietor" of Downtown AOL's
"Advertiser's Cafe," an area of the Web site and also on the AOL side
devoted to chatting about marketing on and to the Internet. As part of that
arrangement, Downtown AOL and the regular AOL areas will be pointing to
resources at the Point of Presence Company Web site where the Internet
Marketing archives and other resources live. Sponsors of Downtown AOL will
also be sponsoring the Internet Marketing list during the same period.
For now, a chunk of the action at the "cafe" will be happening on the
regular AOL side, including new discussion groups and live moderated and
unmoderated chats. Eventually, that will seep into the Internet side, but
no timetable has been set yet.
What does this mean for the list? The list will stay the same old
structure. It does mean that revenue from the sponsorship will help fund
some of the projects I've wanted to do, including developing the web site
to contain more resources related to marketing, upgrading the server on
which the list is running (an old Macintosh IIcx at the moment), and
providing better search and retrieval tools. It should also free me up to
write more original content for the list, or to farm out paid commentary as
well.
More will be forthcoming about the new service and how we'll be integrating
with it, but I see only positive benefits. (By the way, we'll retain our
complete independence: Point of Presence is wholly owned by myself and my
business partner, Todd Haedrich, and our main mission is to develop
corporate sites. AOL will be acting as a sponsor of the list, not its
owner.)
Glenn Fleishman
Moderator and so forth
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Date: 17 Aug 1995 14:55:05 -0700
From: "Eric S. Theise" <[email protected]>
Subject: SSL challenge -- broken ! (fwd)
There's a missive making the rounds today about the exportable
Secure Sockets Layer being broken in a little over a week by a
French cypherpunk using a brute force, quick and dirty, search
algorithm running over a network of computers at INRIA, Ecole
Polytechnique, and ENS. The full text is at
http://pauillac.inria.fr/~doligez/ssl/announce.txt
but he concludes:
> >* Many people have access to the amount of computing power that I used.
> > The exportable SSL protocol is supposed to be weak enough to be
> > easily broken by governments, yet strong enough to resist the attempts
> > of amateurs. It fails on the second count. Don't trust your credit
> > card number to this protocol.
- --
Eric S. Theise <[email protected]>
Liberty Hill Cyberwerks, P.O. Box 460177, San Francisco, CA 94146
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 17 Aug 1995 14:55:29 -0700
From: Glenn Fleishman <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: SSL challenge -- broken ! (fwd)
At 2:32 PM 8/17/95, Eric S. Theise wrote:
>but he concludes:
>
>...Don't trust your credit
>> > card number to this [SSL] protocol.
yeah, and don't order stuff over the phone. And don't email you credit card
number. And don't ever write it down. And don't think about it, either; a
mental sniffer will steal it.
The potential of someone using a massively parallely encryption cracker to
grab credit cards -- the report says breaking *EACH SESSION* would take
from five minutes to 15 days with the computing power the researcher used
- -- is absurd.
The ultimate thing we need is the system which VISA and MasterCard will
require in the next six months: end-user to merchant-bank or clearinghouse
encryption using at least 48 bit keys. (SSL uses 40 overseas due to U.S.
Export restrictions which may be changed based on the above situation.) In
this case, the merchant credit card acceptor never has to see the c.c. #,
doesn't have the liability for it, etc.
Glenn Fleishman
Moderator
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Date: 17 Aug 1995 15:28:42 -0700
From: [email protected] (Daniel P Dern)
Subject: Re: Usage Gray Areas
I agree that having SOME book content up for free viewing is a
good thing.
I've been in no hurry to let my entire book be onlined, although
the eBooks folks did (working through McGraw-Hill, etc.).
I believe it would cost more to retrieve, download and print a book
like mine (600 pp) than it would to just buy the danged thing, by
the time you factor in paper, your time, printer usage, etc. OTOH,
there are some occasions when having it online might be nice.
FWIW, I put up several thousand words from my Internet Guide for New Users,
plus the ToC, the Preface by Cheryl Currid, ordering info, and the
long shellscript in the appendix. I did this on my own, into Gopher
(hey, this was 2 years ago), and did all the work. (I did let
the McGraw folks know I was doing it, and did run some of my decisions
by them.) A year or so later, parts of McGraw finally clambered
onto the net here and there (although the demise of MecklerWeb 1,
a.k.a. LockeWeb turfed a bunch of the links back into oblivion).
I think it's been helpful to have it there -- certainly to have
the Table of Contents, summary info, samples and "who to call
for orders or how to order" can't hurt. It's the same reason
I put up articles, essays, songs and stuff... people enjoy it,
and it brings in business here and there.
I definitely *do* intend to make more comprehensive use of my
upcoming Web area, to synergize with the on-home-stretch new version
of the IG4NU. Lord knows I've put enuff references into the text,
so I am committed. Or will be.
My concern is to make IT work for ME, not vice versa. I don't want
to be a slave to an area that doesn't generate direct revenue
in return. (If it can and does, I will, of course.) And I'm
all in favor of people buying the danged book in hardcopy...
and meanwhile, giving away info for free remains so pleasantly
simple and easy.
The same principle was involved when Internet World transitioned
to magazinedom under my editorship: Put up enough chunks for
free (at the Electronic Newsstand, back then) to let people
decide if they wanted to buy the magazine, and give them info
about it.
We've come a looooonggg way since these primitive, ASCII/menu
gopher sites of 2+ years ago, especially if you're into
FANCY! BLINKING! COLOR! and *ICONS* and {ISMAPS} and donder
and blitzen whoops sorry as I was saying, giving people good
stuff -- and helping 'em know to go git it -- remains where
it's at. IMNSHO, of course.
DPD, foulardier to the neterati
Daniel Dern ([email protected]) Internet analyst, writer, pundit & curmudgeon
=> Ask me about * The Internet Paper Airplane(tm) * The Internet OFFramp(tm)
=> Click {HERE} to send me a digital nickel<a href="local://~/.wallet">Yum!</a>
(617) 969-7947 FAX: (617) 969-7949 Snail: PO Box 309 Newton Centre MA 02159
Author, The Internet Guide For New Users (McGraw-Hill, 1993) - info & stuff at
URL=gopher://gopher.dern.com:2200 and (under const.) http://www.dern.com:2205
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